Hexbear

12 points

4 years ago

spoiler

Whether he could have stopped it is debatable. IIRC for most of the book he talks about a “Golden Path” that would avoid it, but he might make some comment towards the end to the effect of “that was never realistic, anyways.” Although that could just be cope at that point. It also seems clear that him dying could have stopped it, and there are multiple points where – despite his prescience – he senses he is in real danger of dying.

Great point on the sandworm metaphor, too.

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TedsOtherLeg [none/use name]@hexbear.net

[ - ]

7 points

4 years ago

Deleted by creator

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[ - ]

7 points

4 years ago

Wonky how?

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TedsOtherLeg [none/use name]@hexbear.net

[ - ]

10 points

4 years ago

Deleted by creator

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Florn [they/them]@hexbear.netOP

[ - ]

10 points

4 years ago

I’ve only read the first book myself.

Dune

On the point of the “Fremen prophecy” - those “prophecies” are seeded on various planets by the Bene Gesserit and are intentionally vague enough that they can make use of them as needed. It’s not so much a matter of destiny as one of artificiality - same with their eugenics program.

But that’s where the jihad and the metaphor of the worm come in. It be steered a bit, but it is beyond the scope of anything that the Bene Gesserit are able to engineer, and it is their undoing. This is the closest Dune comes to destiny, and it can just as easily be interpreted as a result of historical forces. Even if the Harkonen plan had gone off without a hitch and the Atreides had all been killed, the jihad would still have take place if only to remove the Harkonen oppressors from Arrakis.

Edit: I can never remember how to do spoilers on the first try.

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[ - ]

9 points

4 years ago

The whole story really buys into the idea of hereditary leadership, pretty much every good leaders is the child of a former good leader.

Well, the premise is a neo-feudal society, so it’s hard to escape that. I’m also trying to remember if Stilgar is anyone’s kid, and how the inner circle guys (Duncan Idaho, etc.) fit in. All the Harkonnen parts also show the absolute depravity that can happen unchecked in such a society, so at least there’s that.

As well as spiritual messiah stories, everything falls into line with Paul becoming the savior, everything is destiny, everything meant to happen.

The whole exploration of this concept is what I think of as one of the book’s strongest points. There’s constant doubt from every angle about whether how true the messiah story is, and even though it winds up happening it’s still unambiguously described as an artificial creation. It constantly toys with whether religion is something spiritual or a tactic of the ruling class.

spoiler

The Fremen legend is explicitly stated to have been implanted in their culture, and Paul himself is a quasi-artificial creation.

Eugenics too, I mean one of the main factions of the world has the goal of creating an ubermensch by seducing men and controlling their reproductive process while with them, and it kind of works.

Totally fair criticism.

spoiler

Nobody ever calls this out as the obvious cop out it is, “yeah sure we don’t technically have computers but you’re creating super humans who basically are computers”.

I think the idea is that at least they’re still human, with increasingly-strong hints at questions like “but are you really human if you turn into X, Y, or Z?” I think your “not even graphing calculators?” argument is interesting, although you do have things like the hunter-seeker that must use some sort of non-AI computing.

Overall, I think it’s OK to just lightly touch on these subjects – having a neat story within a world that raises some interesting questions is fine for me, especially because way too many sci-fi stories geek out about those questions at the expense of better literature.

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zifnab25 [he/him, any]@hexbear.net

[ - ]

2 points

4 years ago

The whole story really buys into the idea of hereditary leadership, pretty much every good leaders is the child of a former good leader.

The story sells the idea that the Bennie Jesuits believe in hereditary leadership. And, as a consequence, they have embarked upon a project of cross-breeding in pursuit of an Uber-mensch who could be a perfect leader. But what they get is Paul Atredies, a man who can only really see that his fate is already sealed and can do nothing to prevent the Jihad he fears and seeks to avoid.

I’d argue Dune actually has a Marxist spin. It’s very obsessed with material conditions and the natural flow of history. Where it does posit on truly “alternative” futures, it focuses on Liet Kynes, the imperial planetologist, who posits the opportunity for Arakis to bloom. Changing the material condition of Arakis is the only way Paul ever sees to truly change the direction of the planet and the universe as a whole.

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zifnab25 [he/him, any]@hexbear.net

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3 points

4 years ago

spoiler

There are several instances in which he sees his death as a possibility, but then concludes he’d become a Fremen martyr leading to the same universe-spanning conquest. He also foresees his sister standing in for him in an instance, and concludes this would be just as bad. At the end he realize that he never really had a choice in the outcome, only the particulars.

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2 points

4 years ago

Ahh that sounds right. Time for a re-read.

spoiler

The best Dune prescience moment for me is in one of the sequels when Paul gets blinded but has done so much space acid that his future sight is constant and precise enough that he can function as if he can still see. I shoehorned that bit into the ending of a homebrew D&D socialist-noir campaign once, fond memories.

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