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2 points
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Yeah thats a different issue(s) and i agree that it plays a signififcant part in the western left’s failure to realize mass movements that have the “praxis” and “material analysis” OP calls for. At least a much more important roadblock than the misguided view about a non existing failure to “find a centrism between tendencies and approaches” or “synthesize anarchist praxis with marxist analysis” into something “new”

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9 points
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7 points

MLs lose faith in anarchists because they fear non-hierarchal confederations aren’t sufficient to maintain their quality of life.

Meanwhile my broke ass knows that any revolution is a good one from the perspective of the people at the bottom.

Hot take here: sectarianism is an inherently privileged phenomenon

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8 points
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3 points
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I don’t necessarily think it’s a different issue at all. Anarchists lose faith in MLs .

I dont think thats relevant to what i was talking about. That the view of "we should find a centrism between approaches” and “synthesize anarchist praxis with marxist analysis” into something “new” is a misguided way of looking at things that invents a dichotomy and “hole” within marxist thought and praxis that isnt based on reality ,content and history in order to call for a “synthesis” that will complete it and unite it with anarchism. Not having faith in something doesnt mean you have to rename things and invent a feel good synthesis that would allow you to ,on the surface, have faith. When they answer about

What is the “anarchist praxis” that marxist/communist parties and orgs that also practice materialist analysis dont also practice on their own ? Or better stated, what is the “anarchist praxis” of important immediate value that anarchist radical parties/orgs practice much more oftenly/successfully than marxist non anarchist revolutionary parties/orgs ?

i will elaborate further with them.

But for now the fact that anarchists

lose faith in MLs because they fear “authoritarianism” will lower their quality of life"

Is contentious since no QoL ever decreased with a communist revolution .They lose faith on freedom of press and expression, independent from the party political and party organization,centralism…stuff that mls dont promice in the first place. And irrelevant to the point of “synthesizing both ideas of both sides” based on the way AES managed to survive under initial conditions and pressure unimaginable and unaplicable to modern western experience.

The fact that

“MLs lose faith in anarchists because they fear non-hierarchal confederations aren’t sufficient to maintain their quality of life”

is contentious (they dont believe non hiererchical confederations and way of doing revolution can materialize, survive and enact changes in time and territory scales needed for any transition to communism to happen) and ir

MLs want the successful USSR of the 60s and 70s or modern China but don’t think as critically on the experimental early phases where most ML movements in Africa and South America were put down by imperialist violence."

is contentious. They dont want to emulate USSR or China, thats not what applying their analysis to the conditions of each project and country goes. Them recognizing that the USSR and modern china are mostly results of adapting the marxist lenninist approach and analysis to their conditions and problems and supporting them on that basis doesnt mean that they WANT or will try to do the same things the USSR or China did or does. Also the second point is weird . Yeah movements were put down by imperialist violence and yeah some MLs dont analyse them as thoroughly as possible. But

A. No tendency analyses its failures as thoroughly as they should and arguably MLs have by far the most revisions on previous theories based on failures and disaggrements.

B. That has nothing to do with anarchism or any “synthetsis with anarchist praxis or ideas” and MLs have zero reason to believe that imperialism managed to overthrow movements and revolutions because of a failure to synthesize with anarchism or adopt practices of them (whatever that means). And that more anarchist “synthesized” approach could have prevented any of it. Which was the point of the original comment.

C. Having by far and away the most mass movements that even managed to reach the point of having to deal with the “experimental early phases” and with large scale imperialist attack and undermining by global capital means you are gonna have the most defeats. They are the default outcome in how the world that exists and existed either way… I dont see how that fact or the lessons MLs should learn from that stuff would reinforce the mindset i commented against, of we should strive towards the “centrism with good ideas from both sides”, of renaming existing practices and solutions within the tendency as anarchist in order to feel good imagining a synthesis that will leave everyone united and stronger and will solve practical and historical shortcomings for some reason

Internet-only MLs especially overlook the importance of peasant communities and local organizing in China and Vietnam, preferring to couch successes in good leadership as a cause of direct action when it is realistically more a facilitator of direct action.

Why are we talking about terminaly online MLs and anarchists here ? The millions of Vietnamese and Chinese communists , the party members, the leaders and theorists, realized the importance of peasant communities and local organizing , intergrated with them and facilitated direct action in success and scales unmatched by anyone in human history.They are the shinning example of it. I agree western MLs, much less the internet brained, must learn from that and intergrate those theories, understanding and experiences . But thats just that, doing correctly what their theory says and what their successfull projects. So again no where here we have to rename and talk about anarchist practices and good ideas from both sides that have to be synthesized and so it has nothing to do, nor it gives credit, to that mindset that i talked about in the original comment.

But I think the EZLN demonstrates the utility of bottom-up decentralization as a counter to liberal bureaucracy and violence.

It demonstrates the utility and success of those things in their extremely particular ,unique , unscalable and unreplicable conditions (historicaly and rn). It is the correct approach for them as they exist rn and for what they want. What the Zapatistas have done in their territory is amazing as far as the structure of their society goes but its no way comparable or scalable to any conditions of any historical or current communist project in order to “look for solutions there to apply retroactively” and “look for a synthesis”. If the US or even Mexico really gave a shit about getting rid of the Zapatistas, they’d have done so. They only have like 10k people in poorly armed militias,occuppy less than 1/20th of mexico and it being mainly jungle, they have expanded barely to more than 10% of their original size in many decades and their combined population isn’t even half a million. They’re just a relatively small amount of people living in small villages in a jungle of little geopolitical importance not really caring about industrialization or any urban development. They don’t have a lot of infrastructure (that’s kind of the point behind their rebellion, they do not WANT a lot of industrial development because it goes contrary to their way of life), they have little modern equipment, little organization in their military, and they just rely on social cohesion and Mexico not being interested enough in a large organized suppression. They were mostly left to their own devices by Mexico cause they arent a threat to neither capital or that state and even their historical clashes put together have been minascule compared to the amount of warfare,undermining and agression on every front a state like Cuba had to face for even a year. The momment global capital or just the US diverted an iota of their attention to crush the Zapatistas they would have. Their “bottom up decentralization” structure is beautiful but how can it be a lesson for synthesis when it exists only because they exist in a totally alien internal and external dimension of “what they want to do domesticaly” and “what they have to deal with from within and outside” than any large scale communist ,socialist or even anarchist movements have existed or will have to exust.If the lessons are about peasant power and local organizing sure, but MLs have no reason to look at the zapatistas for that more than they have to look within the huge (and more applicable) successes and failures of their own movements on that front . That doesnt mean you shouldnt support them or that they arent inspiring , it means its a local non industrial project posing little threat to domestic , let alone global capital, with internal structures and soluctions unscallable to even a fraction of the realities,aggression and complexities that any large scale revolution and subsequent project will have to face if it wants to try and exist within the current imperialist and capitalist dominated world .

Both sides have great points

I agree but my entire comment was disagreeing with the mindset of exlusive good ideas and practices of each side that we then have to try and synthesize into something new that is neither side and unites everyone,making he movement more successfull and stronger

Both sides in the west are pretty crap at empathizing with the people who suffer the most under capitalism

I agree to an extend but again i am always talking about the original post and my orginal comment, the western left isnt held back from empathising with those people better or being in better position to help them because “we dont do a centrism between anarchism and ML” and because “we dont combine and synthesize “anarchist praxis” with materialist marxist analyisis”. That these arent even things you can do and terms we should confuse

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1 point

That these arent even things you can do and terms we should confuse

No offense but if you’re worried about confusing people, I have to say this post is extremely hard to read.

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