Hexbear

4 points

2 years ago

The comment they were replying to didn’t present any history at all. They were just telling a story to retroactively justify raising, killing, and eating chickens.

And as parent said, the fact that something was done previously is not a good justification for doing it now. In fact, it’s the base of conservatism and then reactionary thought. There need to be other, good reasons.

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sysgen [none/use name,they/them]@hexbear.net

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3 points

2 years ago

That’s not how I read it. They explained why it was done historically. They didn’t just say we should do it because it was done previously - they said : here is why it was done, and implied that the same reasons apply today.

It’s not a story that raising, killing, and eating chickens is an efficient use of resources in a context of sustainable, low-industry farming. It’s factual and true, in that context. That’s currently a widespread context in 2023 across the Third World (of course not in more economically developed countries), and there are many people on this website that think that we should adopt this kind of approach to agriculture moving forwards. If you do, then yes, it’s an efficient way to do it, and that is an argument towards that.

You may disagree and think that this isn’t a sufficient reason. That’s not the same as saying that it’s merely an argument from tradition, because it isn’t.

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3 points

2 years ago

Again, the poster they replied to did not state anything historical. They made some shit up that sounds good but doesn’t investigate the question at all. This is actually very common in the implicit western chauvinist mythmaking tendency in which we are all constantly bathed. We tell convenient, simplistic stories about how humans used to live, stories that are strikingly reflective of either the status quo or thst bolster the status quo as a development from “primitive” living. Marx was guiltu of this as well, despite his many great insights.

They also said some absolute bullshit about headless chickens that is more or less an urban legend, despite having a tiny kernel of truth.

I do think that the point of raising the veneer of history in these discussions comes from a place other than solid material grounding or a socialist analysis, that it is more about the aesthetics of a lefty academic analysis and is guarding the real reasons that are too conservative and reactionary to actually self-recognize and state (yet). It does play on the “this is how it was, so how it can be now” idea.

I don’t think I understand what your second paragraph means, sorry! Could you rephrase?

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sysgen [none/use name,they/them]@hexbear.net

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3 points

2 years ago

The second paragraph is that it isn’t made up. It’s a historical fact that raising chickens allows the recycling of agricultural waste, and coincidentally it turns out that we only started raising checks when grain agriculture picked up and that their distribution historically was highly correlated with the culture of grains from which they could be efficiently fed without impacting human food use (mainly rice and millet). See : https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2121978119. It wasn’t the case in Europe, however.

These historical circumstances still persist in much of the world, and are the reason why many subsistence farmers still today use chickens. If you see that as a basic model for the future of farming, as many do, then it would make sense to continue, otherwise not (in which case you’d probably be looking at lab meat/eggs instead).

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3 points

2 years ago

The second paragraph is that it isn’t made up. It’s a historical fact that raising chickens allows the recycling of agricultural waste,[…]

“Allows” does heavy lifting in these statements. It means it is possible. Yes, of course it’s possible. And it’s how westerners have been using them for a few hundred years, not coincidentally.

The paper you cited draws conclusions based on coincidence: they create a (we should note, tentative) timeline for chicken domedtication in what is now Thailand and say, “you know what else happened around then? Millet and rice”. This is fun stuff to speculate about, but is also premised on a limited imagination and, frankly, a lack of contending with much of what we do know about neolithic agriculture, which is to say that a lot of it doesn’t follow the narrative of the agricultural revolution, but was instead often play farming (to use a problematic term), or held a niche that was a minor role carried out for social or spiritual reasons, or reflected a very different approach to agriculture than working a field. Anyways, I’m just providing context to point out that the paper cited has all the hallmarks of a simplistic narrative following this line of thinking. I’ll point out two obvious things, not to say that they are what happened, but to illustrate why we shouldn’t be lazy in confirming our biases here.

Cereal production was not particularly high-yield until much, much later. Diets were dominated by other food sources. Therefore, agricultural waste would also be comparatively small. The number of animals supported by farming would be small.
Anyone who has raised chickens with any amount of space knows they spend a fuckload of time pecking, especially at pests.

So, how did the authors rule out this coincidence following from wild chickens (red junglefowl) following their essential insect food source to places where cereals were grown and stored? No doubt, agricultural waste would be something to feed these pecking jerks, but we should be highly critical of just-so stories. Also, I’m being exceptionally generous, as we don’t have much evidence to solidly align these timelines or draw the clear line from agriculture to domestication.

These historical circumstances still persist in much of the world

I will wager, with high confidence, that very few places in the world have the historical conditions of the jungles of neolithic Thailand. The cultures there, as has been the case nearly everywhere except the most environmentally-constrained places (e.g., far North, cold conditions), would have been rich and varied, and have a diversity of food sources and practices that differed from culture to culture.

Modern places, including poor and third world ones, are not, generally speaking, recapitulations of a historical state of humanity. There are many that exist in a way that separates them, at least in part, from the worldwide economic hegemony, carrying out aspects of a hunter gathering or a particular and uncommon means of agriculture. But these are still modern people and cultures. Most participate with the wider world and make use of technologies and levels of ag production (including monocultures) completely unavailable to any neolithic people. The vast majority participate in agriculture not through a traditional means or a historical means, but through a means forced through imperialism, usually with monoculture crops fed by fossil fuels and intended for export. The import of food is the norm, under these very different conditions.

In terms of a model going forward, animal ag is nearly entirely an unnecessary downside that is forwarded by marketing and (comparatively) rich consumption patterns. The conditions under which it is helpful are exactly those of deprivation through imperialism, where people are forced to get by with so little that having animals to handle scraps and waste becomes valuable. But this is not a recapitulation of historical conditions, it is an extremely modern and capitalistic situation and aligns better with a “hustle grindset”, individualistic approach to global poverty than one focused on addressing its true driving factor.

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sysgen [none/use name,they/them]@hexbear.net

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3 points

2 years ago

You didn’t read the study fully. It’s not using the jungles of Thailand as the only example - it also looks at situations in Northeastern Africa, in modern China, etc…

That handles about half of your argument where you argue that it only works for that specific environment, it doesn’t, it is observed in every historical environment where suitable grains were being grown.

There is no reason to have a just-so story. The article actually does consider the hypothesis that chickens merely stumbled into cereal-growing places, but that’s just a question of how it started. It doesn’t explain why people continued to engage in very deliberate husbandry for thousands of years. I suggest you completely read the paper if you’re interested.

It also addresses the fact that, yes, Europe was not a place where this was a factor. Instead, other animals (notably pigs) filled this niche in a way that more synergistic with the crops and practices of the time and place.

As far as the point about global poverty, you’re just coming back to my original point. If you believe that the way forwards is industrial agriculture (I do too), then yes of course animal husbandry doesn’t have a point in terms of efficiency, as I said before.

It’s an okay point of view that, no, we don’t need to have industrialized and mechanized agriculture everywhere, and we can have modernized small-scale farming, in which case having animals such as chickens can be efficient. There is a difference between something being necessary because you are destitute and something being efficient because it allows you to get more out of your resources - it could feasibly fall onto the latter.

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2 points

2 years ago

You didn’t read the study fully. It’s not using the jungles of Thailand as the only example - it also looks at situations in Northeastern Africa, in modern China, etc…

I’m aware and did read the study, thanks.

That handles about half of your argument where you argue that it only works for that specific environment, it doesn’t,

When on earth did I say that?

it is observed in every historical environment where suitable grains were being grown.

Incorrect. What the authors actually say is that chickens coincide with the spread of Asian crops, particularly rice. i.e., this follows a pattern of agricultural trade and sharing of practices.

There are many, many places that developed and grew grains without chickens. Nearly all of them, in fact.

There is no reason to have a just-so story.

There are many reasons to have just-so stories. I already pointed to a particularly pernicious one, which is the widespread western chauvinist tradition of justifying current practices, and especially eurocentric practices, as a natural and historical outcome. There does not need to be a direct material interest in the authors doing so, though there always is one: you can get published more easily and with less work if you more or less support this kind of thinking. It doesn’t need to be intentional, either. The lathe of capitalist academia will take true believers and cynics alike.

Academics tell just-so stories all the time. Our comrade Stephen Jay Gould wrote about this extensively regarding evolutionary theory, whereas the vast majority of scientists in the field were retelling the same stories, and usually because they actually believe them and actually internalize those thought processes.

The article actually does consider the hypothesis that chickens merely stumbled into cereal-growing places, but that’s just a question of how it started. It doesn’t explain why people continued to engage in very deliberate husbandry for thousands of years. I suggest you completely read the paper if you’re interested.

Thank you for the condescension.

It also addresses the fact that, yes, Europe was not a place where this was a factor. Instead, other animals (notably pigs) filled this niche in a way that more synergistic with the crops and practices of the time and place.

Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe pigs were just, you know, already there. And were first part of hunting cultures. Etc etc. It is best to question simplistic narratives that are mostly making guesses based on coincidence. Various parts of Europe, of course, did eventually start using chickens as well.

As far as the point about global poverty, you’re just coming back to my original point. If you believe that the way forwards is industrial agriculture (I do too), then yes of course animal husbandry doesn’t have a point in terms of efficiency, as I said before.

It wasn’t clear to me that this was your position. However, my point about global poverty is about modern conditions not mirroring those of neolithic Thailand, or really any of the places and times in the article, but instead reflecting modem capitalism. A similar tool is involved (animal ag as food technology), but of course even that is different due to artificial selection.

It’s an okay point of view that, no, we don’t need to have industrialized and mechanized agriculture everywhere, and we can have modernized small-scale farming, in which case having animals such as chickens can be efficient.

Efficient in what way?

There is a difference between something being necessary because you are destitute and something being efficient because it allows you to get more out of your resources - it could feasibly fall onto the latter.

Is this what you mean by efficient? Due to trophic levels and the energetic expense of entire birds, I’d say you’re using a lower technology for no good reason when you could just mulch or otherwise process your waste more efficiently.

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