https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/TheDeprogram/comments/11s7x4u/badempanada_uyhgers_video/
Found in the Deprogram subās discussion ofnit which is quite good. Radio War Nerd also does this beating around the bush with Zenzās beliefs. To say nothing of Deprogram & RWN Russia takes,
If you have specific objections, name them
I would say the āpossibleā (Iām honestly not quite sure how widespread it is) sterilization that mightāve produced a massive drop in birth rate is one of them
And the other is the too broad institutionalization of people based on their activities, I know theyāre not just putting people in these institutions against their will because they are muslim, there has to be other criteria, but I find it hard to believe that everyone (or maybe even most) who passes through them actually was, or had a probability of becoming, a terrorist.
And generally Iām taking a āwait and seeā approach, because intuitively I would say that this program wonāt actually end separatist terrorism (as US wars didnāt end terrorism and increased it) because of the resentment it can provoke in people in Xinjiang whoāll end up being radicalized, but there hasnāt been an attack in a while soā¦
Itās literally the āpeopleās war on terrorā and Iām not saying that as a criticism (even in a completely ideal socialist society there may be terrorism) but I do think some things can be done in the name of it that will go too far.
Regardless Iām only willing to discuss this in places like these, otherwise Iām careful not to play into anti-china propaganda
Wait you believe the great replacement Uyghur sterilization theory
Lmfao this us exactly what I expect from everyone doing ānuanceā - you assume thereās something to the accusations of anticommunists who were paid to LIE
Wait you believe the great replacement Uyghur sterilization theory
I donāt believe thatās the intention in any way nor that sterilization is that prevalent.
But I thought both the declining birth rate and the presence of sterilization were both acknowledged by the government at some point no? Back in 2019 before everybody started screaming genocide the government was a lot more open about this program. Goes to show how damaging the genocide narrative is.
I would honestly appreciate an answer and I donāt mind if you just say youāre not sure, thatās at least more honest in my case
Actually found gzd/sino links that pretty much cover everything https://r.nf/r/Sino/comments/kyccz3/uyghur_sterilization_allegation_debunked/ huge post
https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/lsaji0/masterpost_of_sources_for_debunking_xinjiang/
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1193454.shtml GT investigation busts contraception lies in Xinjiang
The Global Times read the yearbooks of hygiene statistics, and found that the data on the removal of IUDs was not released every year, which raises the question as to how Zenz acquired the estimated number when no data was in his claimed source.
"Hereās just one major piece of evidence, refuting the widely spread āforced sterilizationā claims that serve as the bedrock of the cultural genocide argument. In his report, Zenz states that 80% of IUDās in China were done in Xinjiang, writing: āIn 2018, 80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nationās population. In 2014, 2.5 percent of newly placed IUDs in China were fitted in Xinjiang. [38] In 2018, that share rose to 80 percent, far above Xinjiangās 1.8 percent share of Chinaās population. [39]ā Zenz gives the following Chinese primary source: ā[38] Source: 2015 and 2019 Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbooks, table 8-8-2.ā But what does the yearbook actually say? Hereās the actual 2019 Chinese Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbook. Itās quite a document, several hundred pages long. If you go through the slog of scrolling to page 228, youāll find Zenzās table 8-8-2 in the following page:
https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg
The relevant column is ę¾ē½®čč²åØä¾ę°, the number of IUDās implanted. We have a total ę»č®” of 3.8 million, with Xinjiang ę°ē accounting for 328,475. Thus 8.7% of Chinaās IUDās occurred in Xinjiang. A side note, but what really stands out about this table is not Xinjiang but Henan. In all of China, 86% of vasectomies and 26% of tubal litigations happened in Henan. Unlike IUDās, these are real sterilization procedures that cannot be reversed. It looks like the Chinese assistants helping Zenz mistakenly added a decimal. Either that or heās just straight up lying - Iāll let you make your mind up on which youād rather believe.
The āfalling birthrateā argument is also a bad faith spin on the fact that Xinjiang Uighurs only recently were placed under the same birthrate restrictions as the rest of China, where before ethnic minorities were allowed to have MORE children than the majority Han population (That article has a typical Western spin on it, but still) so yes, you could assume the birthrate has been dropping, but intentionally so and to suggest that itās some genocidal scheme to breed out the Uighurs is just patently silly. If you want to argue that the government dictating how many kids you can have is authoritarian overreach, thatās fine, Iām not going to fight you on that whether I agree or not, but it IS applied across the board."
I would say the āpossibleā (Iām honestly not quite sure how widespread it is) sterilization that mightāve produced a massive drop in birth rate is one of them
I totally put off responding to this but remembered it and wanted to mention to you that IUDs would be an incredibly stupid way to conduct a āsterilizationā campaign, since itās meant to be a very temporary procedure and is thereby totally reversible. Historically we have seen what actual sterilization campaigns tend to look like (chemical castration of Ethiopians in Israel, hysterectomies on migrants in the US) and they are not the sort of thing where the victim could hypothetically go to anyone with training as a gynocologist and have it safely reversed in literally a few minutes.
It seems much more likely when one sees a large uptick in IUD insertions in a historically impoverished area where women have comparatively less autonomy to be things other than homemakers that perhaps this is something women are doing voluntarily as a product of recent development rather than due to compulsion.
And the other is the too broad institutionalization of people based on their activities, I know theyāre not just putting people in these institutions against their will because they are muslim, there has to be other criteria, but I find it hard to believe that everyone (or maybe even most) who passes through them actually was, or had a probability of becoming, a terrorist.
I think you know that this is a really nebulous claim, but itās worth noting that these people werenāt taken to Guantanamo Bay or even to a āprisonā in a recognizable sense of the word. A segment of them were imprisoned in the literal sense of the word (though with freedom to return on weekends and keep contact with the outside world), but what they were doing wasnāt breaking rocks in a quarry, it was receiving education and vocational training. For someone who was at-risk in part due to poverty or social insularity, these are not terrible things to spend a year on. Granted, that doesnāt justify just rounding up people willy-nilly, but it makes āconcernsā about not-at-risk people likewise require a little more substantiation.
