Thatās already happening in Ukraine, so itās not what they are talking about.
Iām suggesting that that could be all there is. It doesnāt have to be more. Itās illegal now and enforced because thereās a war going, but how is enforcement going to look once the country is stable?
since 2014 when they passed some bills against the russian minority and russian speaking Ukrainians
Okay, so this is what I want to know more about please.
If thatās not apartheid then what it is.
Apartheid is legal, thatās the big difference Iām getting hung up on. All the defacto apartheid in the world is going to faze most liberals because 1) Theyāre usually racist themselves and 2) āItās just retaliation for the war by lone wolfs and itās blown out of proportionā. But legal apartheid is non-refutable (lol letās go with harder to refute).
Donbas would return to Ukraine - and they want to do what exactly with Donbas then?
Kill (kill is being used a hyperbolic synonym to abuse) Russian citizens and collaborators where there is legal framework for saying they supported an illegal invasion by Russia. Even in the case where the legal wording allows discrimination against those in the east, it wouldnāt illicit as strong a response from the European public as if the legal wording mentioned ethnicity.
Again, those are the people who even in middle of losing war make senseless terror strikes against civilians and even attacked Crimea.
This feels like youāre trying to convince me that the Ukrainian regime is nazis. Iām already onboard with that. Iām only not onboard with the assertion by SovereignState that I have been shown evidence that Zelenskyy has talked about a legally enforced apartheid system.
Iām suggesting that that could be all there is. It doesnāt have to be more. Itās illegal now and enforced because thereās a war going, but how is enforcement going to look once the country is stable?
Please be real. Anticommunism is going in Ukraine since 1991, it goes HARD since 2014 to the point where old babushkas are dragged and convicted in courts for presenting soviet memorabilia including posting them on internet. If after the war the same clique remains ruling nothing will stop, it will most probably escalate.
Okay, so this is what I want to know more about please.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2014-010539_EN.html?redirect
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210401-new-law-stokes-ukraine-language-tensions
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine
Just a minute of search and already three separate cases. And as you can see not even only Russians, Hungarians and Greeks are targeted too. They arenāt even solely antirussian, they are raging chauvinists. Shock therapy:
https://mronline.org/2022/08/01/west-prepares-to-plunder-post-war-ukraine-with-neoli
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/economics-of-disintegration-in-ukraine/
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-is-ripe-for-shock-doctrine/
https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-24/ukraine-supplement/states-of-shock/
Apartheid is legal
As seen above, it is legal.
Kill (kill is being used a hyperbolic synonym to abuse) Russian citizens and collaborators
Itās not even hyperbolic. Ukraine is deploying deathsquads. For example in Bucha they literally murdered people wearing white armbands, which werenāt even collaborators, just neutral people wanting to live despite war. Now when Russians retreated from some land, Ukraine is openly stating it will purge it. Hard to say how much this is happening since reliable information is scarce and media are controlled.
it wouldnāt illicit as strong a response from the European public
West is spinning everything into proukrainian message or whitewashing it or silencing it, like the aforementioned Bucha massacre, massive amounts of neonazis in Ukraine military, apartheid law, blames Russia for attacks on Russians (!) or civilians in Donbas, rampant corruption etc etc. Zelensky could be personally slaughtering infants in center of Kiev and you would hear praises of it.
I would recommend digging a bit more, a small example how narration has changed:
Iām already onboard with that
Good. That clears some of what i already wrote above. Question is, why are you thinking the banderists neonazis wonāt do what every other nazis in history had done, apartheid and persecution of minorities. Hell they even TELL you they will do things like one of the clearest cases of apartheid state, Israel, is doing.
Iām only not onboard with the assertion by SovereignState that I have been shown evidence that Zelenskyy has talked about a legally enforced apartheid system.
As i said before, that is already legally in place. They are just telling you it will be worse.
Please be real. Anticommunism is going in Ukraine since 1991, it goes HARD since 2014
But they still had two breakaway socialist republics. Shocktherapy will only exacerbate anti-government opinions. If the enforcement wasnāt strong enough before, then this war is a good excuse to strengthen it now.
Just a minute of search and already three separate cases.
But these arenāt based on non-alienable traits. The first one is refuted in the reply by the commission. The second is the most damning but still doesnāt point towards punishments for private use. The third source even says that Russian is allowed as an option, as long as the publication is fully accessible in Ukrainian. Other countries have similar laws. Over time, Russian language use might die out because of them but itās not apartheid.
Iāve seen compelling evidence of planned and actively happening liberalisation. Iām onboard here as well. Abuse was meant to include murder, but also smaller abuses. Iām also not pretending the westās propaganda isnāt overt. Iād like credible smoking-gun sources on apartheid in part to fight some of this propaganda.
Question is, why are you thinking the banderists neonazis wonāt do what every other nazis in history had done, apartheid and persecution of minorities.
(De jure, because de facto persecution of minorities is happening) Because I think it would be unpopular in Europe and they want Europeās support. Vigilantism can serve their needs fine. And Iām not even saying youāre wrong and it hasnāt happened, just that the evidence Iāve seen is ambiguous, and I requested unambiguous evidence.
If something is written in law that allows serious discrimination based on inalienable traits, then that can be broadcast and change the narrative about the regime. A hundred photos of nazis is only just that. One hundred photos. They have 40M people, so itās squishy. (Yes I understand that there were 800000 Euromaiden protestors standing side by side with Nazi flag carriers) But legal code isnāt squishy. Statements by Zelenskyy arenāt squishy.
But they still had two breakaway socialist republics. Shocktherapy will only exacerbate anti-government opinions. If the enforcement wasnāt strong enough before, then this war is a good excuse to strengthen it now.
Ukraine had by now two huge waves of shock therapy starting in 1991 and 2014 and few smaller ones, and the most noticeable effect of them was mass exodus of people both to Russia and to the west for nearly solely economical reasons. The breakaway was more a compound effect of shock therapy, the oppression of russian-speakers, coup trampling over the eastern Ukraine, and anticommunism somewhat too. Do remember that there are many russian-speakers in Ukraine that do identify as Ukrainians, and the chauvinist nation-building narration maidan clique presses is far from truth. Also history proven that the shock therapies in east Europe did not sparked nearly enough opposition to really change anything - in no country except Belarus they did change anything by themselves. people just sucked it up, with very active western support for the compradors making all the efforts to make it so.
I linked you the IMF and G7 plans for post war looting of Ukraine which by all means will be probably one of the most tragic event that country witnessed since 1991ā¦ and the eagerness of the Zelensky government for allowing it. Of course things are still hanging because the looters donāt know if they would have anything to loot left after the war (meaning they are not sure Ukraine will still exist as a state), and Zelensky is so eager to please them because they are the only thing that are currently supporting his neonazi clique and he will need A LOT more material support if heās gonna keep his butt on his office and not inside siberian prison. I just wonder where the line for support lie for them. Or if that really matter, since the profits are all going to private pockets of bourgeosise and all the costs are on the working class as usual in the imperialist wars.
But these arenāt based on non-alienable traits. The first one is refuted in the reply by the commission. The second is the most damning but still doesnāt point towards punishments for private use. The third source even says that Russian is allowed as an option, as long as the publication is fully accessible in Ukrainian. Other countries have similar laws. Over time, Russian language use might die out because of them but itās not apartheid.
The institution most famous for blind support and propaganda of banderists is of course supporting the banderists. Canāt those pesky Russians, Greeks and Hungarians just stop being what they are and become good Ukrainians.
You know, thatās not even just apartheid. That is, borrowing the popular liberal terminology, cultural genocide.
Because I think it would be unpopular in Europe and they want Europeās support.
Sorry but youāre just denying reality at this point. EU media and politicians are just cheering them up no matter what they do.
