The idea that the Palestinian people have only been able to persist because of their religion is ridiculous to me. They are resisting because colonialism, apartheid and genocide are very bad things to which nobody would want to be subjected, not because of Islam. If Palestinians were atheists, is he suggesting that they wouldnāt have the strength or the will to resist? Would their lack of a belief in the supernatural turn them into doormats for Isnātreal?
I like Hakimās content, but his position on religion is quite frustrating. He is a Muslim first and a Marxist second. Also, Joram van Klaveren is still a right-winger.
Whenever I talk about Islam to Marxists or Marxism to Muslims, I get the exact same reaction from both sides, instantly shutting down the other by calling them āIdealistā or āKaffirā and not take any time to understand each other, like at most theyāll read the Quran or theyāll read the communist manifesto, not take time to understand it and call it a day, which I understand because not everyone has the time to read a book so long and repetitive let alone understand every bit of it, thatās the point of having a conversation and asking questions, but you canāt write off everything in you way and label it as ābig badā for having a word that you donāt like, thatās just ignorance.
You are definitely correct that there is not much communication going on, let alone productive. But another reason for that this is an awkward and difficult conversation to be had as Marxism and Islam are ideologically contradictory is a very strong, formal sense. Obviously this is most immediately an abstract, theoretical point, though that is not irrelevant, as moving through differences and formal contradictions towards consistency is necessary for moving towards truth, and truth is not irrelevant to politics, especially Marxist politics. There is also the issue of the political history of Islam, which is not very progressive and has become less so in the modern era imo. The contradiction between them is also not only something perceived by Marxists, but is very much clear to Muslims as well. An issue that Marxist militants ALWAYS have in my experience in situations like this is that if you are talking politics, or trying to agitate or organize, and you are doing so with religious individuals, especially if they are radicalizing and becoming interested in Marxism, is the contradiction they clearly perceive between their religious convictions and their developing Marxist/Communist political beliefs. At a point if you are in a party you do have to have the conversation with potential militants or members that Marxism is not compatible with the liberal position on religion of pretending like it is politically irrelevant, simply to appeal to the insecurity or narcissism of particular individuals who want to have their cake and eat it too. It is completely incompatible with the Leninist conception of the party.
It shouldnāt be surprising that Marxists are not, in general, going to be attracted to a religion which not only explicitly states that they deserve to be and will be burned and unimaginably tortured in hell for eternity, whose metaphysics is clearly incompatible, but more importantly from itās inception to the current day has proscribed very different political structures and relations than Marxism (again, not a surprise, given that it emerged in Arabia in the 7th century CE, and that itās founder was not only a political and religious leader but a warlord who seems to have committed war crimes and whose values were profoundly different to those of modern socialism).
Itās not a coincidence that the modern radical and dynamic expressions of political energy in the Islamic world of the modern era have been Islamist, and that Islamists immediately crush any progressive forces when they come confidently into power. Every place they have come to power they have enacted absolutely depraved social policies. The success of Islamism in the modern era is not only an expression of the religiosity of these societies and the effects of Imperialism and Colonialism, but also an expression of the failures of progressive forces, i.e. communists and socialists in these societies.
Honestly a consequence of this is that individuals then often end up taking pretty simplistic or nationalist positions in relation to certain political struggles, because there is also a reticence among many people of the left to recognize the self-evidently reactionary aspects of certain movements which stem directly from their religious, theocratic ideologies, as well as broader material conditions, due to the risk that that will be perceived as an attack of the downtrodden. Itās a bizarrely moralistic, un-Marxist, and frankly moronic position to take, because more fundamentally its a question of being realistic about the political possibilities available to movements which are not driven ideologically by socialist or communist ideology, which I think worsens alot of the analysis you see on these problems.
It shouldnāt be surprising that Marxists are notā¦ modern socialism).
This right here is exactly what Iām talking about, If I went out to a Muslims right now and asked them about Marxism theyād talk about China torturing the Uyghurs or that Stalin killed one gazzilion people, you have not read about Islam and youāre perceiving it from whatever source you got it from, thatās why you said Muhammed was a warlord who committed warcrimes [search the Islamic laws of war] instead of commenting on something that can actually be criticized.
(Itās not a coincidence thatā¦ socialists in these societies.)
This is why it is important to understand Islam, thereās 1.6 billion Muslims, you can not fight against all of them and you can not magically convince all of them to pick a political side that was heavily red scared to them and that contradicts them, in fact they will declare Jihad on you and I think for being so ignorant youād deserve it at that point.
(Honestly a consequence ā¦ you see on these problems.)
Once again what I said, I did not suggest that Hamas should rule the universe or that the next Caliphate be built in China, you just read Islam and thought of idk a communist caliphate or islamic socialism or some bullshit, youāve proved yourself to be speaking out of Islamophobic propaganda just like Muslims speak out of red scare propaganda, I am telling you need to actually read and understand something to do an analysis on it, and this is also what Hakim was calling for in the first place.
What on earth are you talking about? Again, your comment has either nothing to my points, as you are getting aggressively moralistic and missing, ignoring, or misinterpreting and misrepresenting them. You are claiming I am stating things which I am not. Everyone liking this comment should be a bit embarrassed frankly as they clearly decided not to understand what I wrote and just confirm their feeling of moralistic virtue.
I think I should put my cards on the table somewhat and point out that I used to be a very devout Christian, as nearly converted to Islam in my local context as a result of my alienation from Christianity and my desire to retain my spirituality, given that my Muslim friends were essentially marketing it to me as Christianity without the contradictions. I was actually very intellectually and emotionally attracted to Islam at a certain point, but not for too long. I continue to be interested in Islamic philosophy and theology to the present day. Iām saying this simply to get across that this is not a view Iām taking from wherever you clearly think. Of course, someone being intellectually interested in a subject, or having been attracted to a viewpoint in the past, doesnāt preclude prejudice in the future, but you have given literally no argument or evidence for how anything which I said was Islamophobic. And again, youāre making the same error Iāve mentioned before: you seem to be intimating that Iām saying something Islamophobic because Iām critical of religions in general (and Islam in particular), and that so are Islamophobes. Which is the same thing as looking at a red square, seeing then that there is a red circle, and saying that the circle is therefore a square. My source of Islam was me repeatedly reading the Quran and the Hadith and works of Islamic philosophy for a year, and discussing it intimately with my Muslim and ex-Muslim friends before deciding it clearly incorrect based in particular on what my ex-Muslim Marxist friends told me. So there were both intellectual and political reasons for rejecting it. Again, you are just fulling a completing vicious and unjustified accusation out of thin air because you are too thin-skinned and intellectually immature to admit that there is an inconsistency between Marxism and religion, or because you donāt like something critically pointing it out. Really bizarre.
Where TF did I say not to understand Islam? I am in fact clearly arguing for the opposite in everything that Iāve said, and that of course requires sensitive conversation and seriously sympathetic understanding and study of the religion and its history, which I have again said is necessary. The fact that you are unable to distinguish be being critical of a religion from an attack on people who happen to believe in it for a variety a material and intellectual reasons says a lot frankly about your own maturity. You seem to just been assuming that a critical view of Islam must be based on ignorance of it. That Muhammad was a warleader is trivial. The idea that he was purely pursuing his conquests purely out of spiritual virtue is so idealistic an opinion as to beggar belief, especially given that that view can only be maintained by simply taking Islamic religious documentsā claims at face value, which is absurd for any Marxist, as completely historically uncritical. That he committed war crimes is my opinion. Am I, as a communist, supposed to hide the fact that I donāt admire or take as either ethical or political role models a man who had a very young wife, several wives in fact, and beheaded Jews. I am not a Muslim. Iām under no obligation to take those as the valid basis for what is, or is not, a war crime. In any case, Iām not going to intellectually respect a religion in which the mainstream view which is that that those who do not believe after hearing the ārevelationā are doomed to, and deserving of, eternal torture in hell. The idea that I should respect that because it is part of an ideological structure of spiritual value to someone is absurd and cowardly. And again, this has nothing to do with respecting those people. People are, in general, better than the religions they practice.
No where did I claim that anyone should be forcibly converted. In fact Iām pretty critical of the USSRās history related to religion (not that they forcibly deconverted, though they did place, at certain points, intense pressure on religion and were clearly very negative towards it), and think that there was significant Islamophobia. Because, as any Marxist would know, the conditions of peopleās ideology is not to just be determined by the will of particular groups, but by their broader socio-economic material conditions. Again, that view is for anarchists, not Marxists. But you do not seem to be understanding that part of my basic point is that there is a difference between being open, sensitive, sympathetic, and careful about critique in public and especially when political alliances are required, but that should in no way lead to communists pretending, like a bunch of cowardly liberals, that materialism is not the correct basis not only for a scientific view of the world but also for effective socialist politics. That does not preclude working with non-communists and religious individuals or even groups, but is does inform it. Anything else is intellectual and political cowardice and will be politically counterproductive in the long-run. Communist politics has never, ever, been effectively based on hiding the implications of our views.
Also the fact that you are justified religious war in your comment should have earned you a ban from the mods. I thought this was supposed to be a Marxist forum? So in one sentence you are happy to do a superficially, vulgar materialist maneuver of saying that āyou have to recognize the material reality that there are 1.6 billion Muslimsā, which is trivial and obvious and adds nothing to the conversation, and then you move to moralistic claim that I should be murdered by holy war, for something which is not only what I have not done, but the precise opposite of what Iāve called for in my comment. Honestly your comment is either profoundly dishonest and Iād be pretty ashamed if I were you, or deeply ignorant.
I did not claim anywhere that you said that Hamas should rule the universe or that there should be a Caliphate in China. Where in Godās green earth did you pull that bullshit from? Honestly there are no real coherent points in anything that youāve said. If you donāt have anything to contribute except ignorant, vile, vicious and completely unjustified insults then kindly donāt respond again. You are poisoning a forum that is supposed to be for principally for Marxists, which you clearly are not.
explicitly states that they [presumably atheists since Marxism didnāt exist then] deserve to be and will be burned and unimaginably tortured in hell for eternity
Where in the Muslim holy texts is this stated?
Every place they have come to power they have enacted absolutely depraved social policies
Can you give some examples that werenāt more or less created by the West? Iām not aware of Libya having depraved social policies before the coup
Where in the Muslim holy texts is this stated?
Quran [2:39], it also says it a few more times, but Itās about the afterlife, anyone who doesnāt believe in the afterlife and just believes a person lives in complete darkness also sees a shitty afterlife for believers of any religion, basically working your entire life just to be stuck in complete darkness and disappear, you canāt be neutral about the afterlife. it is something that shouldnāt matter for anyone who wants to stay out of idealism, what should matter to judge a religion or a school of thought is how it teaches to act towards anyone whoās not from it, and the Quran says in [60:7] [60:8] [60:9] what it says.
Can you give some examples that werenāt more or less created by the West? Iām not aware of Libya having depraved social policies before the coup.
Iran, the laws against women are real, but a lot of the laws were made up by the Iran, the example I can give instantly is that in Islam there is no law that punishes women for not wearing Hijab, while Iran law criminalizes it.
Yes comrade atheism is what I am referring to here. And Marxism was born in part out of a critique of religion, as a political extension of scientific critique of religion, as Marxism is the Proletarian stage of Scientific Revolution. The concepts of socially real abstractions such as commodity and money fetishism has intellectual roots in the Marxist critique of religious fetishization. There are religious communists, and contrary to what might be expected Iām actually very sympathetic to the pursuit of mystical and spiritual experience as a key component of a flourishing life. I sympathize deeply with this motivation behind religious belief, though desire to experience the numinous is not limited to non-atheists. Like honestly if I was pushed to it in some ways my metaphysical beliefs in the light of modern science in conjunction with my interpretations of dialectical materialism almost lead to a form of pantheism, though Iām considering that to be atheistic here. Part of my sympathy is because for 16 years of my life I was in a cycle of devout religiosity and alienation. So I understand the appeal intimately and think that that has a place in a socialist and communist society, though in a form very different from that which organized religion currently takes.
There are several places in the Quran and the Hadith were the punishments in hell and the idea that it will be eternal are implied or described. Please see my other response to your comment for some examples. It is a completely ad hoc, idealist method to ignore the Hadith/Sunnah, which is almost as important in the discussions over Islamic social policy and legislation, as the Quran, as the latter leaves alot of question unanswered, for the materialist reason that it is an imperfect religious text, despite it still being a really marvelous text in many ways. The Quran itself is a fascinating text, and I recommend that everyone read it. There are passages of immense beauty, sublimity and philosophical depth, as well as poetic effect, but though the question of whether or not I think it intellectually impressive overall is a secondary concern, I do also think that, no matter how progressive Islam as a social force might have been during itās rise to prominence, relative to the Byzantines or Arab paganism, it is not any real basis as an ideology for progressive, let alone communist politics in the current era, so we have to make that clear if asked, as we would for any other organized religion as they currently materially exist, or could feasibly so exist in the relevant political futures open to us. Of course, as Rania correctly points out (while bizarrely assuming that I am suggesting the opposite), this in no way implies that discussions with religious believers cannot be open, sympathetic and sensitive, and doesnt change that it is of course reactionary to simply go around telling people they are incorrect or attacking them personally for their religious beliefs. The point is that Marxists have to understand, realistically, the nature of organized religion as it currently exists. But that, again, is not the same thing as making clear that the communist ideological position that has to be staked out cannot be on a religious basis, and that the legitimacy of religious justifications in politics has to be contested, and that we have to make clear that that politics based on organized religion is fundamentally limited in terms of the progressive potential which it opens up. In societies where religion is very powerful, it is a key obstacle to Socialism and Communist radicalization. Rania seems to be suggesting that Communists should simply hide their views and ignore reactionary aspects of religion, which is not communist in the slightest.
Libya is a weird case because Gaddafiās relationship to Islam was very strange, and he was, as always, pretty incoherently unorthodox when you look as his expressions on it detail. Libya never really engaged in any real thoroughgoing Islamization of its political structures. Certainly not in any way comparable to, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia. It was certainly the society in the Middle East and North Africa with the most notable economic success. No disagreement there.
