You bullshit your way into the idea of a 150 million person “labor aristocracy,” obscuring class divisions during what is probably the most intense period of class differentiation in US history: the period after the postwar boom where living standards for the US working class is declining, while the capitalists hoard wealth in historic quantities.

Your argument here is not an answer both things are true from a Marxist perspective.

There is a labor aristocracy in the west compared to the rest of the world, while simultaneously it doesn’t mean the person lining up to get their food stamps are part of the PMC or aren’t exploited workers. Yes America is a heavily class divided country, but on a relative analysis America is also the imperial core profiting heavily from it. Nobody is “obscuring” anything by pointing out exactly who and where the imperial core is. At the same time nobody(at least nobody arguing in good faith) is “blaming” the American worker for simply being born there and benefiting from it. Yet it seems pointing this out is an incredible offense…

In general Americans do enjoy benefits from imperialism and this is a very important part to understanding their material interests, Sanders voters want healthcare but you aren’t going to convince them we should be building hospitals in Africa first, Sanders himself is a disgraced imperialist and that is the farthest left you got for over 50 years or whatever, the most you’ll get is some non-answer like "we can do both(just don’t ask with what money and who is going there). In general the American “left” just wants to redistribute the share of the spoils of imperialism, which to them is just reduced to something something big corporations and billionaires blah blah. There is no understanding that the majority of these profits come from direct foreign operations or rely heavily upon it.

You on the other hand, hold American workers responsible for the crimes of their ruling class in a way that 1) is bullshit, not grounded in conditions or consciousness as they actually exist, and 2) isn’t going to win anyone to your position. So I can see how you might struggle to build a connection.

The thing is people on this community don’t always want to hear the hard truths about what a revolution means, I am not American so my view is certainly biased, however from a global perspective we shouldn’t blame ourselves or our ideology for the results of the absolute destructive mentality of capitalism. The harsh response to his point of view is proof of this. Everyone here memes about revolution and change and death to Amerikka and all that but the moment someone seriously defends civil war or balkanization regardless of the consequences then he is being petty or cruel.

Alas just arguing that there will be innocents who suffer is a meaningless construct, who is innocent, from what perspective and based on what metric? A revolution is an explicit statement of the end justify the means and if you don’t accept this premise then you are not realy ready to fight for it, or any sort of meaningful change realy. You’ll always be at the mercy of the fascists who threaten you with killing innocent children or woman or worse, “Capitalism/America is too big to fail”.

Ultimately if there is Balkanization or anything like it will be because at every single step of the way, both the American population and the capitalist ruling class have taken steps(sometimes very wrong steps) towards it. It is not the socialists/communists fault for realizing this and planning for this and ultimately unironically supporting it.

Our task is to use the opportunity towards our own goals not to be a nanny of the fascist capitalist state trying to stop it from destroying itself. Our duty is to the masses and ensuring we can make the least amount of people suffer while working towards our goal. If at some point you replace the goal with just being scared of the consequences then you already lost.

Your analysis of imperialism and labor aristocracy is absolute trash.

No it’s not. Even the least class conscious American understands at a material level (though they may not be able to put it into marxist terminology) that they benefit from US imperialism and extending US tentacles worldwide. It’s why when US goes to war it does so with an outright majority (50%+) against whatever country the US declares the new enemy.

Yea I’m pretty sure I could get quite a few empathetic responses from pointing that out. I’m a trot, so I literally and routinely have friendly conversations about socialism with strangers on the street and at protests, and it helps that more than 50% of people under the age of 30 in the US are sympathetic to socialism. Being that you’re not from the US, did you miss that 25 million people protested against racism and police brutality in the US this summer? Quite a few of those people are looking for a way out of a racist capitalist status quo.

The BLM movement represents Social fascism as outlined by Stalin - ie. Social-democracy as the twin pillar of fascism. The BLM movement under this context is an oppressed group seeking to enter the Labour Aristocracy. There is zero internationalism in this movement

Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution. The bourgeoisie cannot retain power without such a bloc. It would therefore be a mistake to think that “pacifism” signifies the liquidation of fascism. In the present situation, “pacifism” is the strengthening of fascism with its moderate, Social-Democratic wing pushed into the forefront. - Stalin, https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/09/20.htm

Black Lives Matter indeed but nothing is said about the 27 million Yemenese that are starving due to US blockade or the slave markets in Libya due to US foreign policy. Ad inifiitum for the entire continent of Africa. BLM is not a revolutionary movement but a liberal movement seeking a greater share of the imperial pie

Are you so terminally online and disconnected that you think most working class Americans celebrate the My Lai massacre, or even know what that was?

I gave one example of how the American public treats both war criminals and those who stop war crimes.

I can name a million others though…How about Chris Kyle celebrated in American Sniper?

I’m a trot

So we don’t have to worry about socialist revolution anytime soon then eh? (Just kidding!)

Yikes. In retrospect, I’d actually like to see you explain to folks who are legitimately struggling to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families that, by virtue of being born in the US, they work on a project equivalent to the death star and do not deserve basic improvements to their quality of life.

People say abolish the police because the US police is very similar (though not on scale) as the SS. You can’t work in the SS and make the SS more of a “public good”. It needed to be abolished.

US needs to be abolished. I didn’t even think this was that controversial a point on this site.