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What did Castro do that you think is too far for socialists to approve of in the face of US imperialist forces waiting for any slip up to invade an island of 10+ million people to turn them back into slaves?
All I do is try to hold people to their stated principles, like ACAB or prison abolitionism, because I thought we fucking meant that shit when we said it.
We do, but we have our own house to clean and we do no favors to anyone by wasting energy on other countries. Anarchism is a thing that can only begin locally, the people that are protesting the Cuban government aren’t anarchists, they are demanding US intervention.
And then I talk to the people who are nominally on my side, and it turns out they just want to slap a coat of red paint on all the terrible things capitalist states do. They start repeating conservative talking points without a hint of irony. They’re perfectly willing to justify anything a socialist state does under the reasoning that America is worse. Red Scare in reverse.
Cuba isn’t a “capitalist state” it’s one of the most besieged nations on earth alongside Palestine and DPRK.
If your “socialism” has police, prisons, billionaires, or re-education, I want nothing to do with it, and that’s a hill I will die on.
You’re thinking of communism, the end goal of socialism AND anarchism, also Cuba does not have any billionaires that I am aware of.
Isn’t a better world supposed to be the point of all this? Or is it just about winning?
No it’s about supporting our comrades around the world and not doing things that advance imperial interests. There are tiers of hierarchy, the top being US imperialist hegemony, first we must unconditionally oppose that (this does not mean uncritical support for anti-imperialist states, for example Syria certainly deserves less praise than Cuba).
We’re anarchists, why would we tie ourselves to Lenin’s definition of socialism? If a worker goes to work the grow capital they’ll never themselves use. Whether that’s for the state or an employer, that’s capitalism.
We should oppose US intervention, but there’s no point making apologies for Cuba or any other state.
Capital is power, and capital concentrated into the hands of a state that serves its people is much different than capital/power concentrated in the hands of private entities or states that serve private capital.
In the perspective of world systems theory, capitalism used as power to fend off imperialism is much more beneficial for the working people of the world than capital used as power BY imperialists. It’s as simple as that.
I agree, it is more humane capitalism. Russia challenges western hegemony and Norway does capitalism more humanly. Both are capitalist states and I don’t see a point in using a different name for them.
It is better that Cuba exists as a communist controlled state than as a capitalist controlled state.
That’s not the core of my argument. It’s that we should be against bad things, even when they’re for the greater good.
Yeah, I try to remind folks that violence is violence and that prisons are prisons but it’s exhausting.
The Cuba thing has really brought out the worst in some folks. I’ve seen people celebrating police beatings. Like, these people could have been naives who were mad about vaccines, you know? And I’ve seen that shit IRL, I still can’t look cops in the eye and take a few deep breaths any time I see a cop car.
The other stuff that gets me is celebrating China’s growth through neoliberalism. Like, Deng said they were emulating Singapore. I can tell you what this site thinks of Singapore. socialism is when the flag is red.
Oh. And the uncritical counter terrorism discourse that gets thrown around. I was around for Bush Jr. I know where that shit leads.
Like, I’m on board with certain things the AES states have done. I like the commune system in Venezuela. I like the Soviet education system, but I’m also able to turn around and call their cops bastards when they throw people in cages, which a lot of the folks on this site don’t seem able to do.
Like, I’m on board with certain things the AES states have done. I like the commune system in Venezuela. I like the Soviet education system, but I’m also able to turn around and call their cops bastards when they throw people in cages, which a lot of the folks on this site don’t seem able to do.
The line of thinking I usually take is this: Cops are bad, but if opposing the actions of, for example, the Cuban state aligns me with the US then I will not do that because the logical conclusion to that support is more intervention by an imperialist power. There are far more useful ways to expend our energy than to involve our selves in muddy foreign affairs. Anarchists in the west and especially the US should be focused first and foremost on local issue while supporting whatever side represents the largest number of our comrades abroad.
In this case the left in Cuba is aligned with their government and deserve our critical support.
There’s no need to say “critical support for the Cuban state” only “unconditional opposition to US intervention.” The enemy of our enemy is not our friend.
Anarchism as a movement is, while not pacifist, anti violence. We should prioritize our own communities, and the greatest deployers of violence, but we also shouldn’t stand by while our “comrades” celebrate police beatings.
Exactly, every community has to police itself on some scale. You can’t just let people steal or rape or abuse your comrades. ACAB is a slogan that can only really hold true in countries where the cops are the violent enforcers of capital with no accountability to their community.
Context matters, and while the west is trying to sabotage these ‘authoritarian communist’ countries and muddy information as much as possible it’s impossible for me to have a serious opinion on them.
On the subject of context, as others said police that serve imperialist interests are different to police that serves the common good. Even anarchist societies can have police, provided the power structure is horizontal and said police are held accountable.
For now I can only react to the authoritarianism of the west as it’s the only kind I have solid confirmation on and have experienced first hand. How can I fight against the issues China has when the information I get about them is shady at best as outright propaganda from the US at worst?
Even if we assume everything bad we hear about China, Cuba etc is true, would it not be a smarter idea to get rid of the capitalist stranglehold in the west first so we have stronger footing and a clearer point to deal with them from?
