Permanently Deleted
I’m a jew and before I express the rest of my thoughts I want to say that I do not want to derail this conversation into one about the merits/validity of the comparison of industrial animal agriculture to the holocaust, though I and and other jews have supported the comparison.
It’s not usually my topic of choice when discussing veganism with carnists precisely because of how likely omnivores are to get defensive and how much more fraught with controversy that conversation becomes in comparison to other approaches to conversations about the immorality of animal exploitation. That said, I think that banning the topic or anybody who compares animal processing facilities to concentration camps when it’s relevant, especially if they aren’t doing so flippantly or aggressively, is not a good direction. If multiple holocaust survivors did not agree on the merits of this comparison and it weren’t so damn useful for revealing cognitive dissonance and showing vegetarians how they compartmentalize their ideas on the morality of consuming flesh products differently than those on slightly more abstract products that were produced by flesh of an animal that lives on to produce more for its owners, I’d think differently
I think my conclusion is that if people are being respectful in asserting comparisons of industrial animal agriculture to the holocaust and not being flippant then it should be allowed (ie keep the flippancy/attempts-at-dunking stuff confined to vegancirclejerk or c/vegan)
Final disclaimer: I am not an expert on rhetoric or persuasion, but due to my grandpa’s obsession with the question of how could Hashem allow the holocaust, I’ve been to way too many holocaust museums multiple times, and I’ve seen far more documentaries on the subject than anybody should have to
Just wanna add that I’ve always thought that the terms “carnist” and “bloodmouth” were always pretty lame, despite supporting veganism myself.
I’m fine with carnist. Accurate, a little disparaging, gets the point across. Bloodmouth sounds like a slur used against vampires in a young adult fantasy novel or something though
Some points:
I’m Indian, and part of me sometimes doesn’t mind the “reddit” feel of this place, since I’ve been using reddit for more than 10 years and was radicalized online, but hexbear does have this white online leftist veneer. And it does make me feel like I should be more of an observer rather than a participator, sometimes. I think another poster hit the nail on the head about trying to recruit from online spaces that aren’t reddit. I disagree with that poster about twitter tho, since I think there’s plenty of PoC communists using twitter.
The site’s culture and choice of memes (especially the wojacks, even tho I enjoy them lmao) is very white. Might be an unpopular idea but I think injecting some seriousness, education, and effortposting, and cutting back on the shitposts and chan lite culture is a good idea. I say this, because, while there’s nothing wrong with having unserious/casual culture (I personally enjoy it), we should contend with the fact that hexbear’s culture appeals to and is created predominantly by white people. So if hexbear’s point is to have like a lighthearted place to hang out, of course PoC comrades aren’t going to want to hang out since it’s not their culture! But don’t get me wrong I def don’t think the solution is to just remove or transplant hexbear’s culture.
Posting stuff from hoodcommunist.org. It’s a big communist Black/African blog and their writing has never been posted here lol (tbh I don’t mind posting them). Reposting blogs/writing/poetry from comrades in the 3rd world. Also repost PoC orgs like Black Alliance for Peace. Get real organizers and revolutionaries, or revolutionary orgs in the streets to do AMA’s here, and/or feature them in posts (while still maintaining hexbear’s independence of course).
I think it’s fine that a lot of site users are Americans and post about America, maybe because I am american as well lol, but there should be more posting and education about 3rd world liberation struggles. More emphasis, nuance, care about and for the Black and Brown world. What’s that, you don’t know anything about that? All the more reason to educate ourselves.
Sometimes it feels like when Black and Brown revolutionaries are discussed here, they are treated by people here as either just A) static tokens, where white leftists will like worship them without being able to appraise them critically or see them for their flaws and nuance or B) completely unknown, and just disregarded. An example of A is like you might have a thread about Thomas Sankara or Fred Hampton, where someone will be able to list all their accomplishments and how cool they were, but no one is really interested in, or able to criticize and see their faults. When you treat groups and people like this, it’s kinda tokenizing. there were very serious faults and flaws with these revolutionaries, and a lot of these other movements that we need to take seriously and criticize openly, not just bask in victories from decades ago. As for B, one of the largest and most advanced revolutions taking place rn is the Naxalite revolution of India. As far as Ik there’s never been any discussion on it. Here’s an hour long video covering it from Marxist Paul: https://youtu.be/exd74uNJaeQ?si=cCkpB9odCHHsGsLc There’s seriously plenty for white people to learn, study, and discuss from 3rd world liberation movements.
but there should be more posting and education about 3rd world liberation struggles. More emphasis, nuance, care about and for the Black and Brown world. What’s that, you don’t know anything about that? All the more reason to educate ourselves.
I’ve been trying to make the news megathreads more of an environment for this kind of thing. I’ve seen feedback that it’s a great place for non-Americans to hang out and talk about what’s going on outside of America and it’s really heartwarming. Obviously at a certain point if all we did was history-posting then it wouldn’t a “news” megathread but having historical context is simply very necessary to be able to talk about current-day issues, e.g. we have a great user @LargePenis@hexbear.net whose posts we all love to see, who talks about Syria and Lebanon and other places in the region, and the impact of the Syrian War and how that’s affected the region today and geopolitical struggles between Iran and the Zionist entity, and so on.
I’m very glad to say I have had zero issues regarding my PoC-ness on Hexbear, everyone on this site is pretty cool and respectful in my experience so far.
I’m just a regular cis heterosexual dork-ass black dude. I don’t quite remember how I stumbled upon this site, but I would imagine part of the reason there aren’t many many PoC comrades on the site is that it’s kinda of a werido internet site.
I mean weirdo in a good way. Sadly Hexbear.net is not even in the same galaxy of rotation sites Katz visit, PoC or otherwise. Personally I don’t see Hexbear as unwelcoming to PoC (though I will say the 12 levels of irony posting can be abrasive at times), however I will say it is niche (but in a cool good way).
My only real suggestion would be to just engage with more PoC posts in general. I learn a lot of stuff from reading the c/latam and c/indigenous for example. I think the most welcoming thing we can do is just treat PoC stuff with the same respect we treat anything else. That’s just my opinion.
My sort of “be the change you want to see” thing is just reading and listening to other PoC posters as much as I can and trying to not to be “that guy” when black stuff comes up.
One other thing (and this is a repeat of what I said in a previous comment):
I work in an org, and we’ve noticed that a lot of communists that are white tend to be from Reddit or recruited online from Reddit/Twitter.
Non-white communists are people you’re more likely to find, say, on a non-Reddit community (or non_Twitter) or out IRL where you may be able to convince others to study Marxism or Marxism-Leninism while you’re studying.
In addition, we’ve also noticed that many MLs don’t speak English or, at times, too many speak English. In America especially, it is increasingly a fact that many do not speak English and this goes for many European countries.
Frankly, this last part is a huge problem and the project to deal with this would take a long-ass time to nullify, though I believe that it’s of the utmost importance that it is nullified and that non-English-speaking peoples have a fair share.
For example, even though I speak perfect English, a lot of people around me IRL speak Spanish or prefer Spanish… or they speak an African language some sort (or European but with an African dialect).
This was found in my org, but again, I noticed some other orgs or people in orgs talking about this so I thought I’d give some info while also keeping vague on internal details.
I will say this:
More communities on Hexbear dealing with BIPOC communities might also be in order (not just, say, one community dealing with BIPOC issues or topics).
Like, I wouldn’t, say, make a comm for just “class issues” all in one; there would be “labour” or “organizing” or even “electoralism” (since, yes, PSL, FRSO, and CPUSA do electoral struggle in various ways, I think). Oh yeah, and “poverty finance” is a class issue, but obviously, it’s not just relegated to a comm called “class;” instead, we have multiple comms that encourage this thing.
In some:
We need new members from places that aren’t just Reddit/Twitter.
We to diversify and separate certain topics (in order to highlight them) while still talking of them, ultimately, in a holistic way, I feel.
We need to (at least eventually, as this will be difficult given where we are now) find ways to include people that at least grew up in non-English-speaking background or with English as a second language or no English.
(Among other things, of course; this isn’t a definitive list.)
We need new members from places that aren’t just Reddit/Twitter.
I think online spaces will always inherently be white due to typical socioeconomic issues. People with more free time are gonna be more likely to be online, longer, and more active
I also bet POC communists are way more likely to actually organize because for a lot of us, class struggle is something they need to win for hopes of a good future and something they have way more of a stake in than white communists
Furthermore:
Not everyone uses the Internet
or
They don’t have “ready-access to the Internet.”
Prisoners, many of which are BIPOC, cannot use the Internet at will.
Poor people in rural areas also do not use the Internet at will or have poor connection or WiFi.
Undocumented immigrants also do not use the Internet at will and not for social media.
Social media is a thing of the “middle classes” (who I still count as proletarians) but not for poor proletarians, imho, many of whom are non-white.
In addition, as you said: time is a factor and if you’re under-middle class, for example, then you will be less likely to use social media during your downtime, especially as a means of fun or relaxation or recreation.
The truth is: we say “everyone has the Internet” but that’s not true and, even when they do, they don’t have it in the same way as, say, I assume many in Hexbear do.
While many white communists who live in poor areas do organize and I call them “comrade,” it’s true that many BIPOC communists (and non-communists and non-anarchists as well) do it on a scale and percentage that’s bigger than their white counterparts.
(I include white communists here in this case as we also have a problem with including rural poor whites in our movement, but of course, I can tell you that rural poor BIPOC people are doubly neglected.)
Yes, I’m Latino and at times I feel that (and this could be my imagination) my opinions or viewpoints aren’t as well-regarded or listened to.
I’m also half of one other thing, but I don’t want to be doxxed as its highly specific.
I also feel that at times (and this may not have much to do with the OP) this place can be a bit echo-chamber-y but, again, the things I can think of are a bit highly specific and definitely do not apply everywhere.
One problem is that this place basically “hails” from Reddit, it got its original membership from Reddit, and Reddit has a lot of white communists. We need more non-white or BIPOC communists, as Othello implied, I believe.
Of course, and thank you. We’ve hit it off since meeting each other and you’ve always been very polite to me.
One problem is that this place basically “hails” from Reddit, it got its original membership from Reddit
