Idk if this is the place to post this but it seems better than anywhere else on the internet. So I learned about gender abolitionism recently and I am not sure what to think about it. It seems very utopian to me (note I am cis) perhaps because gender is so ingrained in our psyches. I guess my main problems with it are:

  1. What is going to happen to people who are fine with keeping their identities? You can’t force people to change their gender identity, we are already doing that to trans people and the results are disastrous.

  2. Ditto but for sexuality. Monosexual people make up the vast majority of the population and I dont see this changing that much. Monosexual people generally are attracted to the traits of one gender but find the traits of others to be unattractive or even sexually repulsive. If you abolish gender then the distinction between gendered traits will go away and you will be left with an inability to distinguish if someone is attractive or repulsive to you, sexually speaking. You are already seeing the beginnings of this problem with trans and nb people in hetero/gay/lesbian spaces with people being worried about their sexualities being undermined by the introduction of people who do not conform to the expectations of that sexuality. Also you can’t get people to change their sexuality to make them pansexual, all the available evidence shows that attempts to change someone’s sexuality (i.e. conversion therapy) don’t work.

  3. How will people relate to each other? Already it is difficult as everyone has differing interpretations of gender and what various traits mean, but disposing with it entirely would leave us with fewer ways to understand each other. I agree that labels and identities can be restrictive and even oppressive but I don’t think this is always the case. If you abolish gender but then some other type of identity arises to fill the void, because people need some way of understanding each other, then haven’t you kind of not succeeded?

This post ended up being a lot longer than I originally thought and if this is the wrong place for it I will happily delete it. Am interested to see what people think.

7 points

You’re braver than me. I’m terrified to ask about a lot of things of this nature, especially in leftist spaces. Labels often get perverted and exploited in capitalist systems, but man are they useful.

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7 points

Gender is a fuck. Historically and culturally contingent, an artificial designation created by early humanity to separate those performing different roles in reproduction. Shitty thing to do, but it’s why most cultures assign one gender to those with dicks and a different one to those without. Bad system, totally vestigial.

People on the left broadly want to remove expectations that people of gender X should behave in ways Y or Z to validate their gender. Take hunting as an example. In many cultures, hunting is a distinctly male activity. You probably agree though it’s wrong to see women hunting as an intrusion of any sort, or men who detest hunting as any less of men. This is true for pretty much any aspect of gender expression, be it hobbies, personality traits, clothing, etc. Dresses are gendered as feminine, but should they be? Why? Who benefits from this? All sorts of personality traits, careers, hobbies, clothing, entertainment, etc. are gendered. Not all of them, but many. That’s how gender roles manifest, that how what it means to be masculine or feminine is constructed. For every single one of them, there’s nothing gained by society by gendering them. You might disagree, but that’s an entirely separate discussion. If you think that we should keep some activities as the distinct doman of men or women, and see those of another gender participating in them as outsiders (even welcome ones), then our views on gender are too fundamentally different to have a productive talk about abolition, we’d have to start at a lower level.

Assuming you’re with me so far, the big question is this: when you de-gender all these things, what’s left to identify with? If we don’t as a society say “men do A and B, women do C and D”, what’s left of masculinity and feminity? Some talk about gender like it comes from an innate place inside you, either your soul or your subconscious or something like that. To be a gender abolitionist is to reject that and recognize that gender is a social construct, imprinted from without and not something that eminates from within. Again, if you disagree that’s fine, but it means our priors are too different to have a meaningful discussion

Gender has multiple aspects, performance, identity and expression. I believe gendering any form of expression is needlessly restrictive, benefitting no one and harming those that want to express themselves in ways outside what’s typical for their gender. Gender performance has similar problems, in that they only serve to restrict and not to empower. Calling back to the hunting example, in a hypothetical gender-free world, anyone could hunt. Masculinity wouldn’t need to be invented to allow people to hunt; it only ever served to discourage women from hunting. No one benefits from this. Should you remove the other two pillars (which I believe is a moral imperative), the third collapses.

That’s my stance at least, I hope I’ve explained it well enough. To address your specific points:

1- If you like your gender, you can keep it. This would be a very long and slow social process, something to keep in mind as a directional goal rather than something you try and roll out by sending the gender police on everyone. The idea is to push for the kind of cultural change that renders gender a meaningless distinction. Calling back to the three pillars example above, the goal is not dissimilar to the marxian idea of the withering away of the state. But the withering away of the gender instead.

2- Sexuality, like gender, does not eminate from some place in your soul or subconscious mind. You can’t measure someone’s skull and figure out with certainty whether they like cock. Rather, it’s shaped by the world around you in conjunction with some genetic or hormonal biasing.

Have you heard about how sexuality was viewed in Roman times? The joke goes that for men, sucking another man’s dick was super gay, but having another man suck your dick was extremely straight. It’s not quite so simple, but it is true that the categories of straight and gay, and even bi don’t really fit when you try and apply them backwards in time. If anything, their sexuality was divided into bottoms and tops. Of course it was also deeply misogynistic, so I don’t condone that, but the point is that your sexuality is much less innate than even many on the left often think, subject completely to your cultural setting. As our understanding of gender changes, sexual relations will no doubt change as well. People aren’t inherently attracted to men or women, not in a vacuum at least. New cultural context will bring in new standards of human sexuality as it always has.

3- Honestly I just disagree with your premise. People have trouble relating to one another due to severe late capitalist alienation, sure, but gender doesn’t play some big role in assuaging that. If anything, it exacerbates it. We’re socialized to feel that half the population is inherently separate and psychologically distinct from us, and those halves are socialized in vastly different ways, which makes the artifical distinction a real one. If you find it easier to relate to men because you share a gender identity, I totally understand, but that’s only because gender pushes people apart from one another. It’s not that shared masculinity allows men to relate to one another more, it’s that the artifical distinction between masculinity and feminity causes men and women to be even further alienated from another than they already are with members of their own gender. I might be misunderstanding your question though, I really just have a hard time seeing how gender helps people relate to one another at all so I’m not sure how to address it.

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5 points

People aren’t inherently attracted to men or women, not in a vacuum at least.

I disagree. While people’s sexuality does get shaped by your cultural setting, there is still some base you have from birth. Some guys are born with absolutely no chance of being attracted to women, even in a vacuum. Or no chance of being attracted to men, even in a vacuum. Most aren’t that strict, but are still born with a inherent orientation that can then be shaped by their growing up. (Most) people aren’t born 50/50 perfectly bi until culture sways them in a certain direction. Attraction is part biological, it exists to make us want to fuck so we reproduce and survive. And of course the best way for that to happen is if the people with dicks are attracted to the people with vaginas, so that’s how a majority end up. Cultural aspects get introduced and muddies things, but the biological basis is still there.

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That biological basis is not nearly as strong as you think it is though. I am not disagreeing that people exist that have one set of preferences or another that never change. I am saying that those people are more rare than it seems. Tons of peoples attractions are socially taught (look at what women are considereda ttractive throughouth history, they often dont match up with modern standards at all) rather than an actual selective pressure. Besides, we are at the point in human development where we can control our selective pressures anyways.

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2 points
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Did you read anything after the third sentence? Exclusive attraction may be rare, but everyone is still born with some disposition one way or another that then gets shaped while growing up. And again, from a biological/evolutionary standpoint, there is heavy pressure for the people with dicks to be attracted to the people with vaginas, which is why most are born with a bias towards becoming heterosexual.

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Thanks for this I understand abolitionism much better now and I support it. I was just concerned about whether it would mean people having to change fundamental aspects of themselves to achieve this but it seems that this fear was unfounded.

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7 points
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I thought I was the only one

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3 points
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Tbf. There are lots of trans people that do try and uphold the binary. Lots of older (white, affluent) trans women especially. its comforting to have A set of rules that they can point to and say "see? I am what I say I am according to the ‘rules’. Ultimately the binary is the reason for trans/enby suffering though.

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5 points

It’s a pain in the ass

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menby

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