Not just here, but also on reddit and other social media.
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there’s got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well? Whether it’s about LGBTQ+ issues, or the exploits of Chinese capitalism, or being able to criticize or make fun of Xi, I see posts here routinely and systemically brigaded and comments downvoted to oblivion that even sniff at criticism of China.
I consider myself a free agent, and China’s meteoric rise gives me some hope for a brighter tomorrow (in contrast to the US), but this blatant campaign of social media manipulation gives me pause for concern. It just screams insecurity and makes me not trust what feels like a counter-propaganda narrative. (Mods, please never get rid of the downvote counter.)
Anyway, here’s hoping for a brighter future, but please let ideas breathe.
Thanks for listening.
STOOOOP YOURE DOING IMPERIALISM QUESTIONING AN IMPERIAL POWER
No, you’re aiding an imperial power by wasting time questioning its greatest enemy, which it actively tries to exploit. China does shitty stuff, I’m American, I can’t solve it. I can help solve the problems in our country though, and our country is actively killing civilization, it’s citizens, and anyone brown it sets its sights on.
I think I can count on one hand the amount of times those topics are brought up about China in good faith. Maybe you’ve seen it more often and seen the brigades more than me
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba. It’s a lot of CHINA CHINA CHINA, which between the current culture, and trying to deprogram baby leftists, it’s really hard to spot good faith discussions/let them grow. And the thing that really sucks is every good China discussion is like 1 rogue comment away from name calling, it’s hard to stay on track
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba.
Because China’s economic and LGBTQ+ circumstances will have a much, much, much more appreciable impact on my life in the coming years than Cuba or Laos.
They increasingly own a lot of media and exert influence around the world. Tencent, Huawei, partnerships with Disney, etc. These things don’t happen in a bubble.
Don’t be obtuse. China is the rising power to the US’s established power; of course people are going to scrutinize it more than Laos or Cuba.
If they don’t live in Cuba or Laos either, then why are you requesting hot takes?
Is it already the time for this one again?
Western leftist criticisms of China are largely completely pointless, and only contribute (however slightly) to harmful propaganda narratives.
Many western leftist have lost their faith in the people in their own countries and seek hope from identifying with China. This creates the reactions you can see online, but way more importantly is misanthropic and reactionary. Not good.
Conclusion: please stop chinaposting.
Many western leftist have lost their faith in the people in their own countries and seek hope from identifying with China.
This is what makes me think the western Xi stans are fooling themselves and that this is just a massive cope. The alternative is an extremely hopeless scenario in which there is no immediate prospect of the restoration of a true socialist hegemon to counterbalance the US’s batshit scorched-earth imperialism. This is the reality western Trots have been living in for almost a fucking century (and some western Maoists, for nearly half a century) and they still attempt to organize and party-build in the belly of the beast in conscious spite of the extremely bleak conditions in front of them, trying to cobble together the post-Cold-War ruins of old working-class coalitions in the firm belief that world socialism is still demonstrably possible, without any expectation of aid from a friendly foreign power.
I would love to be proven wrong about my pessimism w.r.t. Xi walking his talk, purging the Dengists as soon as possible, cracking down on the CCP’s billionaire members, and playing an active role in aiding international revolution as the US collapses. But I have a hard time imagining any counterfactual scenario in which the western Xi and CCP stans don’t spend at least a couple decades in denial, and march right into the same opportunist pitfalls the old Capital-C Communist Parties did (opportunism, entryism into succdem and neoliberal coalitions, popular frontism, etc.), followed by further Dengist degeneration under the weight of capitalist siege and a collapse triggering the same existential crisis and sense of crushing defeat that followed the destruction of the USSR in the '90s.
The narrative sometimes feels like media spin from corporate HR.
I remember a comment where someone was asking if making social media posts in China comparing Xi to Winnie the Pooh are banned or met with penalty, and the response was
I assure you Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China.
It’s like, bro you totally ignored the question. Creepy stuff.
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there’s got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well?
There you go. I have literally no influence on Chinese policy so offering any criticism, deserved or otherwise adds to the CIA propaganda war. If you don’t think the CIA doesn’t have people criticizing china from an “ultra-left” perspective just to dissuade people from offering critical support then you are a fool.
“Chinese capitalism” is not my problem as I live in the heart of the imperial hegemon, the U.S. The U.S hegemon murders, exploits, violates, plunders, and pillages countries on a far grander scale than Chinese international companies could. Chinese companies are not denying me healthcare, polluting my city, running roughshod over wetlands, and decreasing flooding prevention in my city. I literally do not have a vested interest in seeing China go down while the U.S is still standing.
I understand the argument you’re making, but isn’t the sentiment that “Chinese capitalism” is not my problem” just a complete abandonment of proletarian internationalism?
Like if you’re drawing your thought from Marx and Engels at the baseline, they are pretty damn clear that “The working men have no country.”
This isn’t an idealist position in either sense of the word—capital doesn’t respect national boundaries and literally treats the working class as an international pool of labor power:
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
Just as the development of capitalism leads to an international capitalist class, the working class, too, is an international class, with international class interests. “An injury to one is an injury to all” is not limited to workers of “your” nation: the victories of the working class in China (or Bangladesh or Burkina Faso or Chile or wherever) are the victories of your class, and their defeats are your defeats.
What you lose when you take the position that “Chinese capitalism is not my problem,” is the internationalist perspective that is an essential part of what it means to be a communist—it’s all part of the same struggle, and the solution is an international working class solution.
“The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
I feel like that argument ignores the material analysis that would need to be made before settling on what needs to be dismantled. American capitalism is the hegemon. It is, in no uncertain terms, the center from which all other systems of capitalist currents flow out of (Read Long Twentieth Century). We are operating in America’s world system, a system that ideologically claims to be a free market while imposing tariff and protections to stop other countries from benefiting wholesale from American markets - in the process of “loosening tariffs” the American diplomatic body pressures, and bribes other countries to adopt neoliberal reforms; neoliberal reforms come in the way of laws, and market systems, those economic systems give rise to neoliberal politicians, which oppress and pillage their own people, and rotten cultures that treat their workers as disposable. China opened up to America and had to make certain agreements, like market reforms. Countries that refuse to adhere to these neoliberal policies end up isolated and cut off from other countries unless they are willing to play politik with America’s opponents.
So if I am seeking to end capitalism as a whole, and we are really playing by America’s rules, what cause do I have to focus on Chinese Capitalism (I’m using your terms, I don’t think China is, in my dumbass opinion, wholly capitalist). Especially as someone that lives, breathes, and exists within the imperial core?
Chinese Capitalism (according to you) exists because America exists and sets the rule of the game. Putting pressure and collapsing the American center, pulls the rug on the entire system. If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country (not one balkanized and turned into a warlord’s paradise, like America wants to do). I want them to assert their rights to their labor and all it creates without the U.S putting pressure on China to suppress, an alleged, communist reemergence.
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America. So again, the only way to destroy the system is to advance the collapse in America, insofar as it weakens the leash with which they control other countries and their workers. As someone born in Venezuela and has experienced this firsthand. It’s very clear that as long as America exists my people won’t have the economic siege warfare placed upon them (see UN Human Rights report on Venezuela) lifted. Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
I mean, there’s some interesting points in there, but I’m not really persuaded to abandon the Marxist perspective in favor of your analysis.
Capitalism is a world system, but moreover it is a set of productive and social relationships that grew over time into a world-encompassing system. The US is, for the time being, the most dominant capitalist nation within that world system, but it hasn’t always been, and may not always be, given US capitalism is either on the precipice or has already begun its decline. We already see how US imperialism is less effective now than 100 years ago: trade agreements are not so one-sided, the US hasn’t decisively won a war in decades, regional powers Outside of the US sphere are exerting more influence in places like the Middle East.
America sets some of the ground rules for how capitalism operates, but again, capitalism predates the US dominance of the system and, to some extent, does not require the US to dominate the system.
If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country
More than that, I want the working class in China to take power, just like I want the working class in Italy to take power, or Chile, or South Africa. I want the international working class taking power and building international socialism, because that is the only way to transform and overthrow the existing international capitalist order. We need not only an international perspective, but international coordination.
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America
I mean, a good bulk of capital is based in the US, but this is mostly plainly incorrect. Of the 10 largest companies in the world by revenue, only 2 are based in the USA. Many large companies not only operate globally but are conglomerations of capital from different nations. The company that makes Budweiser, the quintessential American beer, is actually a conglomerate of US/Brazilian/Dutch capital, and has headquarters in all three nations.
Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
How are you appraising that the Maduro administration is “doing the best it can?”
