Please let me know if this community is not the best place for this post.

When I was a teenager, and even in my twenties, I used to be quite idealistic, naive, and somewhat radical, believing that all humans have the capacity to be good, and that the only thing preventing utopia where all live in abundance were the historical shackles of national/cultural/religious identities. As in, humans would for sure all get along, if only there were no major reasons for any “us vs them” type thinking.

But the older I get, the more my thoughts on the topic have shifted. My idealism has constantly been worn down by finding out about more and more people who would be happy to fuck over every single other person on this planet if it meant they could get a bit further “ahead” than everybody else. But even on a much smaller scale, after establishing my own family and building my home, at some point I realised that I would personally also be willing to go to extreme lengths if necessary to protect the way of life of my loved ones, including picking up a gun if our neighbouring country decides we should no longer have our freedom - this is something I would have considered “idiotic patriotism” when I was younger. Basically, this means I would also be willing to fuck up the lives of others in order to improve the lives of my family, and I think the same is true for most people.

What I’m getting at is that I think there are lots of reasons that people can have to hurt other humans, ranging from psychotic greed to a strong commitment to close ones. I think this is just human nature. I’m using the word “hurt” here in a very broad sense, including taking advantage of somebody, etc.

If indeed this is human nature, and humans are willing to exploit others to try and improve the situation for themselves and their loved ones, how can communism work? Would we not need to “evolve” to a new stage of humanity first, where people are capable of putting the needs of society above their own desires?

I apologise if this is a dumb question with some obvious answer, I admit I have not read any books on communism and am probably missing some key points.

The Confucian philosopher Xunzi argued that humans are inherently bad, but it’s precisely the inherent badness of humans that we should put immense thought and care into our ethical and social systems so that the few good parts of humans are cultivated and humans become good. This is what’s fundamentally missing in your analysis. Whether humans are inherently good or not is a different question from how humans can become good and what responsibilities humans have with each other and with the rest of the world. Nothing is static, and as conscious actors, we have the power to shape our environment, including ourselves.

No human should die from malnutrition and starvation. This is a goal humanity ought to achieve. Human nature only factors in to predict how easy it is to accomplish the goal. If humans are inherently good, feeding every single human is largely an agricultural and logistical problem with an agricultural and logistical solution. If humans are inherently bad, then feeding every single human becomes a long and arduous struggle to root out callous apathy and malevolent actors. But the war against hunger still has to be waged, even if the fight is too hard to be won.

permalink
report
reply
2 points

I noticed you said idealism was a major part of what inspired you to think a better world is possible when you were younger, but that your opinion changed as your idealism faded; you will likely be interested to know that Marxism firmly rejects idealism, so much so that a large body of Marx and Engels’ work is dedicated to BTFOing earlier idealist conceptions of socialism.

The first part of Marx’s A Critique of the German Ideology is a good piece of theory on how society comes to be a certain way and evolves into other forms. Here’s an excerpt that captures the point pretty well (emphasis mine):

Feuerbach’s conception of the sensuous world is confined on the one hand to mere contemplation of it, and on the other to mere feeling; he says “Man” instead of “real historical man.” “Man” is really “the German.” In the first case, the contemplation of the sensuous world, he necessarily lights on things which contradict his consciousness and feeling, which disturb the harmony he presupposes, the harmony of all parts of the sensuous world and especially of man and nature. To remove this disturbance, he must take refuge in a double perception, a profane one which only perceives the “flatly obvious” and a higher, philosophical, one which perceives the “true essence” of things. He does not see how the sensuous world around him is, not a thing given direct from all eternity, remaining ever the same, but the product of industry and of the state of society; and, indeed, in the sense that it is an historical product, the result of the activity of a whole succession of generations, each standing on the shoulders of the preceding one, developing its industry and its intercourse, modifying its social system according to the changed needs. Even the objects of the simplest “sensuous certainty” are only given him through social development, industry and commercial intercourse. The cherry-tree, like almost all fruit-trees, was, as is well known, only a few centuries ago transplanted by commerce into our zone, and therefore only by this action of a definite society in a definite age it has become “sensuous certainty” for Feuerbach.

permalink
report
reply

“Human nature” is a fake concept, especially one that is considered “essential” and eternal of humans. If human nature is anything, then over our 100K year history as anatomical humans it’s our nature to live in communitarian tribes with no personal property.

Human behavior and incentives emerge from the economic base - NOT IN AN OVERDETERMINED MANNER, meaning it’s not inevitable that all who live under capitalist wage relationships seek to become exploiters and greedy. But what is incentives and rewarded is greedy, shitty, alienating behavior in the absence of true and proper solidarity. When people act the way you suggest they’re doing so rationally, now it’s true that they would more to gain if they take the proverbial leap of faith and taking part in a socialist revolution but that prospect is scary because it implies a potential loss without gain and things aren’t bad enough for enough people for them to feel the risk is worth the reward yet.

In my day to day encounters with people, I’m reminded of the enduring power of love and small acts of kindness and solidarity that power our daily lives even in this hellworld.

permalink
report
reply
1 point

But what is incentives and rewarded is greedy, shitty, alienating behavior in the absence of true and proper solidarity.

Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean by this? Is the lack of this solidarity really caused by how our economy works? For me, it seems more intuitive that the lack of such solidarity is in general caused by a lack of interpersonal relationships and links between the vast majority of humanity. As you said:

In my day to day encounters with people, I’m reminded of the enduring power of love and small acts of kindness and solidarity that power our daily lives even in this hellworld.

I totally agree with this. Even the most hateful people have shown that they can change their views about groups they hate if they just spend some time together. But how can such solidarity be built between complete strangers who will never meet each other? Can changing the economic system really be enough for this?

permalink
report
parent
reply

Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean by this?

I’m not who you’re replying to, but maybe I can take a stab at answering your question.

The way I see it, under capitalism, people are encouraged to see each other as competitors - business owners are placed in competition with each other for market share, and workers are forced into competition with one another for work. Under capitalism, if you don’t work, you don’t eat. This sort of relationship is far from natural, and often brings out the worst in people.

On the other hand, the collective nature of work that has developed along with capitalism (for example, a whole bunch of people working together in a factory, on a construction site, or in an office, towards the production of a product or service) can - and does - exert an opposing influence in favour of working class solidarity as well.

Hope this helps, at least a bit!

permalink
report
parent
reply

For future reference, this is more of a post for /c/askchapo@hexbear.net, but I’ll go ahead and leave it up. :)

permalink
report
reply
2 points

Thanks, noted

permalink
report
parent
reply
15 points
*

Someone will have a more thought-out answer than me, as I am not a communist (I have not decided what I am anyway other than generally left… I have a rather distaste for labels anyway.). But, I do recognise your human nature argument, which is a common one, but inherently flawed. So much so, that it is even in this FAQ. See: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#what-about-human-nature

Basically, a tl;dr version is that humans will act in accordance within the systems they set themselves in. They can be greedy, generous, violent, kind, or anywhere on a grand spectrum of the tapestry of options. If you set up the system to encourage greed, such as we have now, you reap what you sow. It is important to remember that we have not always lived in this way and have the option to change things for better or worse. How we do so is another matter and is one of the reasons why the left is always infighting.

For an example of how these systems work in practice, when done correctly, check out: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/capitalism_doesnt_work.html (read the full thing to see why it is relevant)

There are some arguments, I’ve come across, that suggested that the US might have needed the USSR so that they had a competition to keep standards for their citizens up (to keep them loyal, etc.), however, that is debatable but a fun thought experiment.

PS, if you want a great read on this theme, well, sort-of-kind-of, check out: https://archive.org/details/graeber-wengrow-dawn/David Graeber%2C David Wengrow - The Dawn of Everything_ A New History of Humanity-Farrar%2C Straus and Giroux (2021)/ As with anything, having a simple source to blame such as “human nature” never really tells the full story.

Edits: Many and lots, flowing with my thoughts. Deal with it.

permalink
report
reply
2 points

Thanks for answer and references, I will go through and read everything you linked

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point
1 point

https://linktr.ee/comradestarter

Something else to peruse when you have time.

permalink
report
parent
reply

chat

!chat@hexbear.net

Create post

Chat is a text only community for casual conversation, please keep shitposting to the absolute minimum. This is intended to be a separate space from c/chapotraphouse or the daily megathread. Chat does this by being a long-form community where topics will remain from day to day unlike the megathread, and it is distinct from c/chapotraphouse in that we ask you to engage in this community in a genuine way. Please keep shitposting, bits, and irony to a minimum.

As with all communities posts need to abide by the code of conduct, additionally moderators will remove any posts or comments deemed to be inappropriate.

Thank you and happy chatting!

Community stats

  • 149

    Monthly active users

  • 3.6K

    Posts

  • 62K

    Comments