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14 points

Through properly monitored and implemented referendums, yeah.

By a random dictatorship well known for destabilising and invading its neighbors, absolutely not.

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13 points
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By a random dictatorship well known for destabilising and invading its neighbors, absolutely not.

Definitely not talking about the USA. You are also not aware of the fact that the USA is sending troops to Peru to back a government that is currently supported by 6% of its people. But I’m sure this has no relevance at all to the situation in Ukraine. Despite its many honest mistakes (centuries of ongoing slavery and genocide), the USA has been overall a force for good in the world!

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22 points
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Through properly monitored and implemented referendums

You say this shit like it isn’t a euphemism.

By a random dictatorship

Democracy

Dictatorship

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20 points

Come now I am trying to ask questions in an attempt to get them to question the shit they have been immersed in from birth. As excellent a use of that emoji as that is I think we have a miniscule chance to maybe reach this person if we can get the gears turning.

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23 points
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And what gives you the right to determine what “properly monitored and implemented referendums” are?

Also Russia is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie just the same as the US so that argument holds zero water here.

I am genuinely curious what your metrics for what constitutes a legitimate referendum are.

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7 points

Nothing to do with me. I’m a programmer lol

Nothing to do with the US. I wouldn’t support them invading a neighbor after a bogus vote they arranged. Whataboutism.

Independent monitors to make sure the vote is fair.

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18 points

Independent monitors to make sure the vote is fair

And who are these independent monitors?

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17 points

In an ideal world where there was a good-faith international actor or organization who could take the role of moderating a referendum, and the outcome be respected by all parties, that would be ideal. However, no such organization exists. The institutions of the so-called “rules based international order” serve the interests of western hegemony. That is why, for example, Catalonia is not able to have an effective referendum for independence from Spain, and that is a perfectly fine state of affairs; just the way things are. Maybe a diplomatic complaint gets filed somewhere, maybe someone calls out how awful it is that police were interfering with the referendum in 2017, and they’re not wrong. But ultimately, nothing fundamentally changes, and that is the point.

Should people just accept the way things are until an ideal situation allows them to improve their lives in a way everyone finds acceptable? What should people do if things are only getting worse, and there are no effective, good-faith actors to mediate the best possible solution?

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13 points

until an ideal situation allows them to improve their lives in a way everyone finds acceptable?

Craziest part is that a lot of people that follow that line of thinking have also at least recognized the immediacy of police and prison abolition in the context of places like the US but can’t seem to take the next step in applying the same logic to places outside the imperial core.

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