Did you read what he wrote in the linked thread?
Yes. Prolewiki has too. What Eddie Liger Smith is arguing is that we don’t convince them of their reactionary ways but rather adopt them. That is what ‘reaching out’ means. We do not ‘reach out’. We convince them of their reactionary views. Smith doesn’t seem to agree with this proposition.
Therefore, would it be more practical to steer these american labor aristocracy workers towards a movement like MAGA communism?
Somehow you gotten everything correct and then you decide to say this. No. MAGA Communism is a reactionary movement. By bringing people towards MAGA Communism, you’re introducing reactionary sentiment. MAGA Communists are not progressive in any sense. By stating it is the case that we should convince people of a backward, reactionary sentiment, of which imposing “patriotism” to the reactionary masses, means that you are advocating for reactionary sentiment. Please read up Prolewiki’s article on Patriotic Socialism.
Aside from MAGA communists generally seeming like transphobes, misogynists, and potentially racists
Then why support them to begin with? Do you not care for trans people (as I am), or feminists (as I am), or black people? All of whom are oppressed because Conservatives don’t want us to have rights?
When it comes to anti-imperialist nations, we tend to accept their social conservatism under critical support because we understand that they are the product of their conditions, but when we see anti-imperialist Americans who have similar social conservative views, we reject them entirely for it and call them fascists and feds.
Their social-conservatism is a result of domestic action. We should still, and rightfully, criticise those nations for being anti-LGBT. Critical support does not mean ignorance. It means criticising the nation (for being capitalist, anti-LGBT) and supporting its international actions for anti-imperialism. This does not apply to Conservatives because the US imposed cultural imperialism onto the third world, thus making the third world less likely to adopt LGBT ideas because it is seen as a “western” thing. You’re comparing two different things. In either case, we should combat the anti-LGBT sentiment.
(Hinkle has gained 2 million followers since 2019, PSL has almost 100k since 2009).
Follower counts mean nothing. Just because more people follow it doesn’t mean it’s good. PSL has actually been doing stuff, what has Hinkle been doing? Pretty much nothing. He tried to communicate with the third world but it results in failure because no one cares about him.
If the option is between status quo and MAGA communism, because americans are not willing or interested in a full bolshevik style revolution, isn’t MAGA communism better for the rest of the world?
No. This is no different from lesser-evilism. MAGA Communists don’t even have their own party. They just tell you to vote Donald Trump because he is supposedly “anti-imperialist”.
Is there potential that, like DSA and Bernie, this group could be a wide funnel into the left that could result in some sincere right wing conversions?
I’ve seen this argument before and it can be debunked by stating it can have the opposite reaction. Sure it may bring new “leftists”, but it would also dissuade people from “leftism”. Hence why I don’t support the DSA or Bernie, especially given both of them support imperialism.
Beyond that, wouldn’t it be better for folks like us to be engaging and disagreeing openly with MAGA communists to provide the people attracted to their ideas
Yes. We should. And we did. And we will continue to do so. Patsocism isn’t a dying trend, but it isn’t necessarily one that gains traction with conservatives. You can literally think the same way. Conservatives don’t like Communism. Therefore Conservatives won’t support MAGA Communism. Therefore this movement, as big as it sounds, it’s a fringe and extremist group, one which requires further analysis than looking at the surface.
Again, as a person just hearing about this guy, I am reading his quote and reading what you say he means and it seems to be the opposite of what he says…
I don’t disagree with the quote. What I disagree with is this statement: “If Modern day Western communists lived in Russia they would have tweeted pictures of the Bolsheviks reaching out to the black hundreds and demanded that people cancel them for it.”. Source This is what Smith was advocating for. It is not a question of having a “pretty cemented perspective on this topic” but how words are used. This is not semantics. This is just what reaching out means. What Eddie Smith argues is what I said earlier, so I won’t repeat it again.
As far as the social conservatism goes, they are appealing to people who already have those sentiments but bringing them into a frame of reference that is anti-imperialist.
Not all anti-imperialists should be supported, quote Lenin;
Imperialism is as much our “mortal” enemy as is capitalism. That is so. No Marxist will forget, however, that capitalism is progressive compared with feudalism, and that imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism. Hence, it is not every struggle against imperialism that we should support. We will not support a struggle of the reactionary classes against imperialism; we will not support an uprising of the reactionary classes against imperialism and capitalism. Source
Supporting conservatives for “anti-imperialism” is not anti-imperialism but rather the opposite. You are directly siding with conservatives rather than the general masses (or in this case the proletariat). You completely ignored my statement which was this:
Then why support them to begin with? Do you not care for trans people (as I am), or feminists (as I am), or black people? All of whom are oppressed because Conservatives don’t want us to have rights?
I ask again, do you not want us to have rights?
If they didn’t somewhat appeal to the “US identity” and all the chauvinism that comes with it, the messages wouldn’t get through the gates, but could they be inoculating progressive ideas into the white working class by not presenting in a way which totally alienates them from even beginning the conversation?
What identity should communists appeal to? The US identity is born out of a white settler identity. That is a fact which most settlers refuse to understand. Just making white settlers support Russia or China isn’t enough to rid themselves of their reactionary nature. Conservatives (and Liberals too) need to understand that they live on Stolen land and thus they need to support decolonisation in full. For a US communist working for a decade, this is shocking to hear. Instead of paralleling communist ideas, convincing the masses that socialism is superior to them, you instead compromise your position with conservatives. There shouldn’t be any compromises when your own ideology is at risk with such compromise.
Next I see you wallow in your defeatism with: “It’s not like we are actually going to organize revolution in the next few years”, “honestly I don’t see anything else really working very well in this country yet”. What is it are you doing then? You see the troubles within your very country yet you don’t fight back? What have you been doing for a whole decade to let yourself wallow in this?
so whats the problem with these guys trying to convince settlers to back off on China and Russia and place the blame with billionaires?
Are they truly going to blame the billionaires? No they will blame the so-called woke left which is what we are. They argue that ideas like transgenderism are bourgeois, and yet you seem totally quiet about this. With anti-LGBT and racist sentiment, you don’t care as long as it is “progressive”.
Speaking of Trump, I haven’t seen anything of these guys saying to vote for Trump, can you show me that?
Many patriotic socialists call Trump “anti-imperialist”. He isn’t. The strategy of Patsocs is that they vote for the Republicans as they are also “anti-imperialist” and back MAGA. However some patriotic socialists argue there are RINOs! So even if I haven’t shown that they will vote Trump, they still argue that Trump is “anti-imperialist” and so is MAGA “Communism” in general.
They seem to have just launched some sort of org recently, I watched Hinkle’s speech from it and he had the crowd of white people cheering Hamas and listening to quotes from Lenin.
“They quote Lenin so they must be anti-imperialist!” I’ve seen many revisionist organisations quote Lenin in part or not at all or leave parts out. This doesn’t mean they are anti-imperialist in any way.
I consider DSA and Bernie to be reactionaries at this point but I can’t say I don’t know many good comrades who went from apolitical -> DSA/Bernie -> MLs and I see the value of that.
I have also seen conservatives scream against Bernie as he is apparently a “socialist”. Good for you that comrades seen Bernie and became MLs. What I care for is the opposite reaction which can also be caused. Conservatives are against Bernie and thus they won’t be MLs, or at best Patriotic “Socialists” or there will be MLs who are sympathetic to the Democrats or Bernie just because he has some “socialist values”. You may not be well in-touch with Patriotic Socialism, but if you are a US communist, please, please understand it is a backwards ideology that must not be supported.
