Where “feudalism” refers to a specific form of society and not just “that time period”

20 points
*
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
reply

oh fuck yeah this sounds interesting, thanks for the link

permalink
report
parent
reply
7 points
*
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
parent
reply
19 points
*

Feudalism didn’t necessarily lay the foundation for capitalism, industrialization and the emerging global market (by which I mean colonialism and slave labor) resulted in a rapid shift in power from monarchs and feudal lords to industrialists and shipping companies. Basically it was built out of slavery, theft, and genocide.

Highly recommend checking out David Graeber’s Debt: The First 5000 Years

Different economic systems rise and collapse for all sorts of reasons throughout history, and at the end of the book he wraps it up with an answer I think you might find helpful.

The chapter in the playlist titled The Age of the Great Capitalist Empires

And here’s the PDF

permalink
report
reply
9 points
*
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
parent
reply
5 points
*

this makes sense to me. stuff like the East India Company

why do I sometimes hear things like “feudalism laid the groundwork for capitalism”?

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

It laid the groundwork for mercantilism which made way for capitalism. But there were other factors at play as well. History doesnt progress in a linear fashion along any sort of tech tree.

permalink
report
parent
reply

how did it lay the groundwork for mercantilism?

permalink
report
parent
reply
16 points
*

Uuh. I mean it doesn’t, really? That viewpoint is incredibly reductive and eurocentric. It probably made sense in 1860 but it’s nonsense now. A bunch of totally unpredictable shit like the invasion of the Americas and the invention of the heavy plough and the enclosure of the commons and dozens of other things happened and they all, eventually, over the course of several hundred years, ended up at what we call capitalism. But there was a thousand years of “Feudalism” and “Feudalism” isn’t even a particularly useful description for that period because it meant different things in different places and times. And it only really applies to Europe, because China had a wildly different economic history and didn’t ever really arrive at capitalism until Europe started meddling. Same thing with India. There were “Feudal” economic arrangements in India and they never really developed in to capitalism indigenously. Same thing with Japan. Japan was sorta kind Feudal, if we use feudal as a big tent term, and they didn’t really develop in to a capitalist society until the end of the Tokugawa era/early Meiji period and even then it’s complicated.

EDIT: and that’s not even getting in to the ancient world, which had it’s own bevy of weird economic systems.

permalink
report
reply

“feudalism laid the groundwork for capitalism” is just something I’ve heard a few times here and elsewhere, I wanted to know what people meant by it.

the vague impression I always got was more along the lines of “capitalism started because there were just too many non-nobles with money and guns”

or maybe that was my take on early democracy.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points
*
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
parent
reply

In addition to industrialization, one important prerequisite of capitalism is the global market. Mass industrialization requires mass resource gathering through global trade networks. This is done through colonialism, slavery, and exploiting existing strained feudal relationship conflicts in other regions, on a global scale. With the creation of the Gutenberg press and the ‘Age of Exploration’, global trade networks and mass communication was possible, which allowed for the creation of the global market. It’s only when all these material conditions are in place, along with a bourgeoisie revolution (where the merchant class revolts against the aristocracy), that the primary mode of production can change from feudalism to capitalism.

WRT Japan, remember that having capitalism as the mode of production in a society only means that it’s the primary way to produce in that society. The classes of merchants and specialized craftspeople existed under feudalism, but they weren’t yet the main class conflict until the previous rule of aristocracy was overthrown.

permalink
report
parent
reply

It’s not that the feudalist mode of production itself lays the groundwork for capitalism, but rather the appearance of mercantilism, global expansion of markets, and industrialization, combined with a bourgeoisie revolution and a change in the relations of production, that led to capitalism becoming the primary mode of production in western society.

The feudalist mode of production arises from the collapse of the ancient mode of production, barbarian invasion destroying the productive forces (Franks, Vandals, Huns, Goths et al.), suspended trades from no longer existent trade routes, the decline of the population due to disease (Antonine Plague, Plague of Cyprian, outbreaks of smallpox etc.), and the subsequent spreading out of the remaining population away from former city-states and to the country.

Marx talks about it in more detail in The German Ideology.

permalink
report
reply

thanks for the helpful response!

ancient mode of production

what was this and how did it differ from production under feudalism?

permalink
report
parent
reply
7 points

It depends (because the “ancient” mode of production is kind of vaguely defined, had less surplus and was less global so varied more from local conditions, also Marx describes an “asiatic mode” that today we’d say is a conflation between his poor understanding of Asian Feudal/Ancient states, and his poor understanding of the Bronze Age-era Theocratic Command Economies)

But in general we’re talking about the post-Bronze Age semi-market based slave economies in Europe, and similar economies elsewhere, where the three classes were patrician, plebian, and slave (or Spartan, Perioikoi, and Helot) This is of course kind of a partial explanation since Marx heavily biased his analysis to Greco-Persian and Roman Societies.

The chief distinction between Ancient and Feudal is that slavery is the key basis of the system, far more so than even the imperial capitalist economies and that class conflict is primarily between the two non-productive classes over control over the productive class. This conflict develops a social contract and a rule of law that is more collaborative than the previous Warrior-Theocratic systems, and also a more individualistic market economy as a result, as the rich plebians seek direct control over their slave surplus.

However in the late mode of this society this creates a new tension, where the plebian and patrician classes merge under the legal frameworks, but richer members of both classes begin to dominate the economy entirely as power concentrates, to the extent they are independent of the political centre. Additionally, new technological developments allow self-sustaining rural economies with similar surpluses from smaller political units.

Add a cascade failure or two from famine or war to this tension causing communication networks to break down and substinance agriculture to return, and the landowners (or their deputies, or their deputies deputy) become the ruling class of the new system, with the bonds of land ownership merging with the civil/legal bonds to create ties of obligation. Because there are no central legions to slap down slave rebellions, the landowners are forced to rely on a small group of personal companions and yeomen to keep order, which requires progressively giving the slaves more legal rights in order to maintain control.

Meanwhile the poorer urban classes, losing their surplus, are forced to become productive in their own right, forming the core of a merchant/craftsman class that becomes our Bourgoise/Proletariat.

permalink
report
parent
reply
6 points
*

That was a fascinating read, thank you!

could you elaborate on why

concentration of power under rich members of both classes, independent of the political center

destabilizes this system?

also, could you clarify what you mean by this:

new technological developments allow self-sustaining rural economies with similar surpluses from smaller political units

and this:

causing communication networks to break down

permalink
report
parent
reply
13 points
*

On top of the other recommendations, I highly recommend Caliban and the Witch. It’s about gender roles and how they were shaped by feudalism and capitalism. It also does a really solid job explaining how the slaving economies of Rome / Carthage collapse and turn into an early feudal system of Lords and Serfs. It offers very material explanations of the actions and reactions in a 1,000-year struggle between the peasantry and the royalty.

It also talks about how much of our language has been shaped by the ruling class under feudalism.

But it’s mostly about women, and how the ruling class controlled/controls them.

The author opens by saying she’s trying to fill Marx’s blind spot of women’s roles in the class struggle.

permalink
report
reply

Thanks for this rec. /u/Ulyanov beat you to it and recommended the same book, I’ve downloaded it and I’m psyched to read it

permalink
report
parent
reply

History

!history@hexbear.net

Create post

Welcome to c/history! History is written by the posters.

c/history is a comm for discussion about history so feel free to talk and post about articles, books, videos, events or historical figures you find interesting

Please read the Hexbear Code of Conduct and remember…we’re all comrades here.

Do not post reactionary or imperialist takes (criticism is fine, but don’t pull nonsense from whatever chud author is out there).

When sharing historical facts, remember to provide credible souces or citations.

Historical Disinformation will be removed

Community stats

  • 26

    Monthly active users

  • 5.2K

    Posts

  • 152K

    Comments