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If (if, seriously if) any of you catch someone who is a baby leftist, but is actually receptive to discussion and they have shit takes on China/Russia etc, just give them cool facts about American history that spits in the face of what they’ve been told all their lives. Your goal should ultimately get them to question what they ‘know’ and more importantly come to recognize how easily America lies to cover it’s crimes.
Once that baseline is achieved, it is much, much easier to tell them “you’ve been lied about that, too”. It’s really hard for baby leftists to accept that “everything” they’ve heard about these countries is propaganda.
If it’s not a receptive baby leftist, or the conversation won’t last long enough for you to get anywhere, question why they are so willing to tear down these attempts at socialism, and challenge them to name 3-5 good things from any socialist country that they would be willing to implement in their hypothetical leftist society. They may hate Lenin right now, but get them to admit a couple good things, which should be easy, and you soften them up.
Lastly, all of this should be directed 80/20- 80% towards the people who might read it at any point, and 20% towards the person you’re talking to. And don’t get mad, call people names, talk down to them, or be secretarian, as tempting as it might be
also bring up the iraq war
and give them stats about popular support for the iraq war
75% of americans supported it at some point and now only 1/3 will even ADMIT to having done so.
Then subtly suggest that this is going to be the case for more targets of the US gov in coming years. Maybe they will put 2 and 2 together
Specifics I like to bring up include-
-The genocide of Native Americans, noting how the desire to expand was a much stronger driving force of the revolution than its claimed
-The American slave trade, “abolition” of slavery, and connecting that to modern times with our prison systems/law enforcement
-Coups around the world! We have so many to pick from, don’t we, but I’m in favor of discussing ‘Banana Republics’ - Honduras is a good one to highlight and has a more recent one to discuss as well. Toppling governments to maintain fruit prices open people’s eyes
-Iraq war, as you said, and how many lies were peddled to get people on board, and the bloodthirsty populace. It ties in nicely to the current ramp up to China
-My personal cherry on top, things like the Tulsa Massacre (1921) and MOVE bombings (1985) to highlight what the American government is willing to do on its own soil to maintain capitalism. The general treatment of groups like the Black Panthers also work
By this point, they should have learned that US history is way bloodier than they were told, all of that shit is lies and mythology, it’ll topple governments on a whim, lie, cheat, manipulate to launch needless wars to maintain power, enslave and opress it’s citizens without qualms, and kill off their own people - or even drop bombs on them - for turning away from capitalism and towards socialism. If that doesn’t make them see things in a different light, then idk what to do
good list, just an addendum: The tulsa pogrom was just the most famous and high profile pogrom. Hundreds of others happened around the country and it was the norm.
Tusla Oklahoma
Wilmington North Carolina - insurrection of 1898
Red Summer 1919 Chicago
Oocee Florida
Rosewood Florida
Elaine Arkansas
Springfield Illinois
Omaha Nebraska
Amazing post. Also wanna add, it helps to sprinkle in media analysis. People are generally distrustful of the government in some ways, but the media being full of lies is hard for people to swallow. That’s something Citations Needed or talking about bernie blindness can help with, or simply pointing at history where serious news orgs like NYT/Wapo has supported imperialism and genocidal lies.
in all fairness, we’ve recently been experiencing a new audience who seems to need the most convincing.
Self crit time: When I was a baby leftist I thought Cuba, China, Stalin, and North Korea were all just as bad as the US. I identified as an ancom. I used the phrase “socialism with monarchist characteristics” to refer to a relative of Castro holding sway in the party and the DPRK.
Since then I have studied history. I have studied dialectics. I have read the works of revolutionaries across the world and learned about their struggle. Right now I am in the process of organizing the first Marxist organization in my area. All of this came from the relentless efforts of people on the internet, mostly r/chapotraphouse posters, to teach me and whoever else would listen regardless of what senseless or silly arguments I offered in response.
I forget who said it (and also exactly what they said lol) but some revolutionary once said that we have no excuse, we must always use every opportunity we have to teach the people and lead them towards communism. Your efforts are not in vain and though it may be excruciating, by teaching these new comrades you are doing the work of a true revolutionary.
I don’t think directly talking about China and the USSR is a good idea. They’re literally red liberals at this point, so just take it slow. You have to unconstruct decades of education, but how do you do that ? Prove that a lot of the elements they base their views on are false, from social views, to economic views, and so on. Tell them some “cool america facts”, the more you tell them about all the fucking warcrimes, present and past, the more they’ll reconsider what they were taught at school, allowing you to go for more mask off stuff. If you feel you aren’t doing a good enough job yourself, link them vids from creators such as Hakim.
Also, this gets fucking tiring. So take a break from time to time, never hurts to take some time off for your sanity’s sake.
I’d argue the USSR should be discussed before China, because most people (at least the ones I talk to) are under 40, so they didn’t live through the heights of the anti-USSR red scare, but are living in the middle of the anti-China red scare. The USSR then works as a spring board into China
