So I overheard one person I know telling another person I know that “socialism and communism are evil and the church is very clear on that” (referring to the catholic church). And I’m trying to channel my burning frustration about it into asking what people know about communism and how it has interacted with religion more generally, but also catholicism especially, now or historically. I super hard doubt what this person said was even remotely correct, but I could believe that the catholic church takes a wishy washy fence-sitting stance because it tends to on a number of things.

At any rate, it’s something I should know better because I do have catholic people in my life and so sometimes there may be a need to talk to them about these things through the framing of religion to get past the “communism is purely atheistic” type thinking.

Answers from your own knowledge or resources that go into it are both welcomed. I don’t really know how to approach looking for it on my own in this instance because a lot of western religious material is probably influenced by colonizer thinking, or in the US, influenced by red scare nonsense.

15 points

Any religion is welcome. We cannot fight against religion, practice has showed us this. Religion is by definition under the influence of bourgeois control, it follows that there should be a political struggle in the religious camp as well. Liberation theology is one example of that. So if we accept people from different religious origins and beliefs in our party, it’s an opportunity in following the party line on religious places of action, such as churches, mosques, sanctuaries, etc. Churches are already a place where people share an identity, it can perfectly become a place of political organization. This is well exploited by the extreme right-wing in Brazil, for instance.

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14 points
*

There were some Jews in the early Soviet Union who harmonized Judaism with scientific socialism, and the folk who run the Minyan have affectionately described communism as ‘Jewish’, though my own familiarity with Jewish scripture, traditions and ancient history is too meager to explain why. Perhaps @AYJANIBRAHIMOV@lemmygrad.ml can elaborate if he feels comfortable doing so, but I do know this:

In their propaganda the stridently secular early Jewish labor leaders used religious imagery to inspire the workers—passages from the Prophets on social justice, references to modern day Pharoahs and to the Israelites’ liberation from Egyptian slavery.

Now, since historically organized religions have frequently worked on behalf of oppressors, I unfortunately cannot blame the Bolsheviki too much for cracking down on them (which undoubtedly resulted in some collateral damage); this is largely why so many religious establishments loathe communism. Even today there are more than a few communists and other socialists who are antitheists, but I think that that is the wrong attitude to have, since religion (including organized religion) does not need to be reactionary. I would much prefer that organised religions be transformed rather than destroyed.

I hope that this response helps you. Perhaps you know a few Catholics who cherish Judaism and would be curious to learn how it is compatible with communism.

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5 points

Excellent, I share similar views, comrade. The fact that very easily religion “suddenly” became a phenomenon on post-Soviet countries is a testament that even with constant materialist anti-religion propaganda, you’ll just give people reason to be bitter with your regime, even if you give them all they need. Because religion is a matter of identity, something fostered through generations of family lineage, and in summary acquired socially. We can’t change this through intervention, we can only help the political struggle against bourgeois ideology and exploitation in religion

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1 point

Gonna make a note to read up on this, as well as liberation theology as mentioned to me by a number of people in this thread. Appreciate the info!

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14 points
*

Communism is not necessarily totally incompatible with religion on a superficial level (though the different philosophical frameworks, materialism vs idealism, obviously will clash at some point), and in particular there are social elements in many religions, including in Christianity and Islam, that communists would approve of.

That being said the Catholic church is a deeply reactionary institution. They cooperated with the Nazis and were instrumental in destroying socialism in some eastern European countries, most notably Poland. The same goes for the Orthodox church to a lesser extent.

While personal religious beliefs can be progressive, institutionalized religion is almost always inherently reactionary. Exceptions such as liberation theology in Latin America exist but are rare (another positive example is the tradition of resistance struggle within Shia Islam).

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13 points

Of course, Jesus was an excellent capitalist. If he had 2 shirts, he sold one. One time at a wedding he took advantage of the huge demand for alcohol and sold watered-down wine for 10 times its price. It was a miracle! He made a killing providing quality healthcare at a premium price to the blind who needed eye correction surgery. He always preached about saving money and selling for a profit. And my favourite is when he visited the temple and congratulated all the merchants for their incredible business acumen.

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13 points

Religion and belief in a deity/higher power are not the same. Organised religion is a form of control, it is inherently reactionary and therefore anti-communist.

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8 points

Religion and belief in a deity/higher power are not the same. Organised religion is a form of control

This

it is inherently reactionary and therefore anti-communist.

doesn’t logically lead to this

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do you have a list of non-reactionary organized religions?

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7 points
*

I mean I kinda do yes

The Diggers

The Breathren of the Free Earth

whatever movement Óscar Romero was

two overlapping revolutions had taken place simultaneously: a political and a pagan revolution

Muslim socialism and Labour Zionism (i.e. kibbutzim)

The thing that Jesus preached

possibly the Hussites

That’s just off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s more

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1 point

Would it be better to say if the religion is organised according to the original teachings? Every group you list seems to be an offshoot of a religion, they’re socialist movements that were started by the followers of a religion.

I don’t go around considering religious people reactionaries, I base it on their actions. But the main currents of institutionalised religions are reactionary. They enjoy the support of the state (even in the “secular” West) and do not want to see socialism prevail.

I’m not trying to make a universal statement either. When I look at the organised religions around me, I see a reactionary force that wants to keep liberals in power and communists out. There are no Diggers or Muslim Socialists around me, not in any public sense or in any way that people know they exist. There are Muslims who are part of socialist movements and parties definitely, but that’s not the same.

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the original teachings?

religious originalism is exactly as coherent as the justifications for the late tony scaloni’s supreme court decisions. there’s no “true” version of any of these things, especially not christianity in particular where the closest writings are some 70 years later and yadda yadda bart ehrman historical jesus whatever.

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