It’s simple:
Killing is bad, killing fascists is good.
Body shaming is bad, body shaming fascists is good.
There is little to no possibility of hurting a comrade in hypothetical execution of fascist but there is a non zero possibility of hurting a comrade while body-shaming fascists.
History shows us that the former isn’t necessarily true at all. Many innocent people have died as a consequence of necessary violence against fascists.
For example, launching an artillery barrage or dropping a bomb on fascist positions in Stalingrad carried with it the possibility of said shells or bombs landing on civilians or Red Army soldiers.
The issue is that when you post a meme making fun of a chud for their physical appearance, you are casting a wide net that makes other people with that physical appearance feel shitty even if they’re not a chud.
I have a jaw that can pound nails (so pol-face doesn’t really get to me), but have a really scraggly beard that looks basically like the soyface wojak. But then I look around, at other 20-something white guys, and the thing is, like 70% of us have scraggly beards like the soyface wojak. That’s just what 20-something white guys look like now. And you have to admire that kind of effectiveness; the ability to make people insecure about having a physical feature that basically a majority of people in their demographic have.
But I have to wonder how many dudes see those memes making fun of people for their appearance and think, “Wait, I look like that… is there something wrong with how I look?” And causing that kind of existential despair is the point, when you’re using them as a weapon against chuds, or when chuds use them as a weapon against us - but are also why just posting a meme to our own community that says “If you have a weak chin or a scraggly beard or smile too much (etc.) like this dude you are an object worthy of ridicule” is pepper-spraying into the wind.
pepper-spraying into the wind
that’s a great description. I’m not advocating that you don’t verbally emotionally pepper spray a fash, just that you do so while carefully consider your surroundings
In fact, I think the himmler post in question is a great example, the irony of the post is not haha weak chin, but haha these losers think that’s a terrible flaw and even their revered leaders had that ‘terrible flaw’
Yeah, obviously this post is not a great example - if you can make fun of anyone’s physical features, it’s literal and specific fascists. Posting a picture of Himmler and saying “Himmler is an object of ridicule because he has a weak chin” is mostly fine and unlikely to rub off on non-fascists with weak chins. Same goes with Leafy’s chin, Peterson’s Elmo voice, etc. But the more generic caricatures that are basically just “You have [Physical Feature]? You look weird and you’re probably a fascist!” can unintentionally harm our atypically-shaped comrades.
Can we get Himmler/Hitler pronouns?
In my books, it’s ok to bodyshame Nazis because they’re huge hypocrites who think they’re perfect specimens of beauty. I don’t actually think they are ugly, I just know that they would jump at the chance to body shame their enemies, so it’s fun to give them a taste of their own prejudice.
fuck, i upvoted both posts. ngl this post right here is the one that really had me introspecting… thx quill
I’m asking really genuinely and I’m really trying to learn.
Fuck yeah, that’s the coolest shit o7
So I see it this way: if someone is a bad person and your aim is to hurt them, you are under no obligation to be truthful. The aim is to hit that nerve and tear them down, hurt them, not draw analysis and convince someone of something you believe. If their weak point is getting called ugly, call em ugly, even if you believe that ‘uglyness’ is a social construct that serves to keep people down. Now, to be clear, I’m not even necessarily endorsing doing this, cause I don’t really like hurting people, even people I hate, but It illustrates a time where I think these kinds of insults and breaches of conduct are allowed, one on one with a nazi or similar magnitude piece of shit. Hit them where it hurts with their own fucked up values system, you don’t owe them honesty, you don’t owe them good faith bullying. But again, even then I’m not convinced, it’s not something I am comfortable doing, I’ve definitely done it but it doesn’t sit right so I avoid it
But that’s only if it’s one on one, going directly to and hurting only that fash that needs bashin. Otherwise, say in public on an internet forum, especially a leftist one where none of the people being targeted would ever see, then it becomes a social phenomenon, actively participates in and advances harmful attitudes.
That doesn’t apply to these mutuals though, assuming you’re talking about people you know online or offline who are in a circle of friends or whatever, individual cases that seem to be reachable and who you exist to as a person not an internet stranger. I don’t think hurting is ever the way to go there. One of the big drivers of people towards being fash is atomization and the pain caused by social isolation and yadda yadda. Getting hurt and feeling small is what probably help drove them there, at least in all the cases I’ve personally observed, don’t quote that as a rule.
If you think there’s a way to get through to the person, help them, prove yourself to them as an equal, and try to lift them up. It’s like how if you hope to make an impact organizing a workplace, you can’t be a slack, you have to go above and beyond for your coworkers, prove to them that you’re fighting tooth and nail for them, cover shifts for them, make their lives easier, prove things can be better.
Sorry for rambling lmao, I’m pretty high and most of this is stream of consciousness so don’t take it too seriously haha
If for some reason you want to read more of my ramblings adjacent to this topic, I wrote this post about rehabilitating the ‘mutuals’ in our lives
Why stupid though? Is being a terf correlated to a lack of intelligence? No, it’s ignorance, and hate, and a lack of empathy. I get it, I default to stuff like “stupid” or “idiot” a lot, but we just miss a moment to really call them out in favor of a small moment that makes us feel good
Idunno how to feel about that tier of intelligence based insults, like, they’re literally the words children just learning the concept of insults call each other and by adulthood are incredibly firmly ingrained for many of us as such, a largely harmless and childish yet effective insult.
I don’t really know where the line is, so I just try my best to avoid it as best I can shrug
all I can say is that I don’t think calling someone an idiot on twitter makes you a bad person or a bad leftist, but it’s something I personally am trying to avoid doing
But as I said I can see how this is not universal.
Hit the nail on the head. It’s not universal, and it’s impossible to account for everything, but there’s no harm caused to me by trying to avoid insults like we’ve been discussing so I figure it’s a good bet. I prefer to hit on the flaws with their ideals, politics, morals etc, it makes my analysis and criticism sharper since I avoid the easier to come by appearance-based etc insults. Not to call them lazy, but not using them certainly requires more creativity to really flay someone
I really like this discussion, super valuable to have.
IMO I feel like “hitting them where it hurts” may not always hurt who you intend to hurt. How can you guarantee that they 1) read your comment and 2) feel like it applies to them? Other leftists and allies will see bodyshaming comments directed at reactionaries and might think, “Is that how people see me?” I don’t care about the feelings of nazis, but I do care about my online comrades and I don’t want to alienate them.
However this requires a comrade to 1) get hurt by reading body shaming comments that they feel applies to them and then 2) come forward and talk about it and hope we all handle it well. I’m sure #1 happens without #2 more often than we think. The danger with body shaming random jerks is we have no way of ensuring our target feels our hate without hitting others as collateral damage
I don’t care about the feelings of nazis, but I do care about my online comrades and I don’t want to alienate them.
If you insulted a nazi in the woods on his appearance falling short of his own ideals to make him feel bad, and no one else is around to hear it, did you do anything morally wrong?
No really, did you? I wanna hear some takes
I think no. Punching Nazi’s isn’t wrong so insulting them when it’s not going to have collateral damage isn’t wrong either
Yeah, examples I think of are like V*ush using the n-word to make neonazis uncomfortable
Or the libs making fun of Lindsay Graham being in the closet or the Santorum thing (which is obviously not said to their faces, but intended with the idea of it reaching them and upsetting them)
Maybe they would be effective at getting under the skin of people we don’t like, but they’re not really something I think we should be associated with, and are definitely just as likely to be hurtful to comrades
