Comment by miz [any, any]@hexbear.net on is there anyone here who really believes trumps campaign core isnt white identity politics and demographic anxiety at this point?

Theres enough racist people that hes a candidate

Thats it, lets stop putting our heads in the sand with ‘economic anxiety’

Age of Napoleon Bonus Episode that examines the intertwined origins of capitalism and racism

https://soundcloud.com/user-279595680/bonus-episode

I mean ive heard all these arguments before saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, i dont agree with it.

Racism will be here regardless of whether we are in capitalist shithead land or not, i think we have an obligation to speak out against it and organize against it.

I am saying it. Look at italians. Thye were swartly PoC and in our lifetimes they were upgraded to white because we needed more numbers to opress the other minorities with. Before that it was the Irish. Looks like pretty soon Brazilians will be white too. After them probably some Cubans than eventually all Cubans. The japanese were white for a while because we needed people to opress the Chinese with. They lost it when they stoped being a useful tool.

White is not about race. It is a class under cpaitlaism. So long as there is money to be made we will always racialize new and interesting outgroups.

White is not about race. It is a class under cpaitlaism

nah it’s race. If you have a rich black in a community full of whites they’ll just kill the rich black on the day SHTF

can’t imagine being this scatterbrained

But which came first. Is he other because he is black? Or is he black because he us other. Compare a melungion person to a light skinned black person. In that situation race has almost nothing to do with race and everything to do with ses.

He’s other because he looks different, which any 3-year-old, or non-human animal, can see

There are plenty of differences we don’t create “race” around. Some of which are even more heritable than a skin color. I think though pi,king thr most obvious one despite it being much less informative or useful is a clear indicator race doesn’t actually matter as such. It only matters in it’s ease of use for capitlaism

Look at italians. Thye were swartly PoC and in our lifetimes they were upgraded to white because we needed more numbers to opress the other minorities with. Before that it was the Irish

you’re disproving your own point here. Irish and Italians entered the US at the same time. Irish racism died out in the early-mid 1900s, Italians faced mild racism as late as the 1990s, and still do if they’re dark enough

“Racism is economic bc we needed to water down the definition of white to ally against even darker hordes” isn’t the winning argument that you think it is

Yeah, the Irish were made cops so that put them up the class structure. Turning men at arms into full citizens was a classic move. There is no fundamental difference between them, they just found themselves in diffrent places in the super structure and were treated diffrent as material circumstances would dictate.

Yeah, the Irish were made cops so that put them up the class structure

and WHY were the Irish made cops as opposed to the Italians?

Cause they were already partially converted by British colonization. The Irish were papists just like the Italians.

You are proposing the Irish were whiter so they got treated better? That ignores the times in which they were not treated better. I don’t think you can construct a clear line through this data.

Yeah despite being catholic the irish are still northern european, which is what most us anglos mean when they say “white”

capitalism is the sole cause of racism

anyone who believes this has the equivalent of horse-blinders biologically welded into their brain

No one is saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, that’s completely ahistorical. But what is historical fact is the capitalism greatly exacerbates existing racisms.

I am. Race isn’t real. It is an artificial construction we shape to whatever we please. There is no connectivity tissue to it. If capitlaism didn’t enforce it it would wither and die on the vine.

Yes race is totally artificial, and capitalism has invented an intense apparatus to justify it. But the belief in it and the economic forces that drive that belief will exist as long as there is inequality and scarcity. Communism would eliminate that but there are other systems than communism and capitalism. They just wouldn’t be all pseudo scientific about it like the capitalists would.

capitalism has invented an intense apparatus to justify it

You have the causality backwards. Capitalism doesn’t invent things to justify racism, racism is invented to justify Capitalism. Capitalism required slavery, so it required an ideology that made it OK for certain people to become slaves. The racism was post hoc justification for what Capitalism already intended to do.

Europeans didn’t go “look at these black Africans, I hate them so much I might as well enslave them” and then stumble accidentally into capitalism. They realized they required cheap start-up labor for the primitive accumulation of fixed capital and went out looking for it.

By “capitalism invented” I meant “capitalists invented”, which is what you stated. Doesn’t really change my point.

I am slightly upset you said it way better than I could.

racism is invented to justify Capitalism

so then why did the Indoeuropeans kill every European male 4700 years ago

idt capitalism existed back then

It is an artificial construction

the famous artificial construction of your skin’s albedo

The race realist has entered the chat. Get your calipers out everybody.

race realism is when you state that Shaquille O Neal is Black

Yes, I am white but I am darker than several of my latinX friends. I still get white privilege they do not.

Sure, it’s possible depending on the specific features and contexts which are so detailed that I won’t even go into them. As well as family connections, accents, etc.

But if your Latinx friend is blue eyed and pale, and you’re a very swarthy curly haired dark eyed “white” Sicilian, the friend can benefit from “white-passing privilege” relative to your white ass

capitalism is the primary cause and engine of racism. Racialism was invented in the 17th century alongside the mercantile transition into capitalism. Capitalism and Racism were born together and will die together, they are twins.

This only makes sense if you define “racism” exclusively as “white supremacism”. But you’re not saying much at that point. You’re just saying racism as we currently experience it is a product of capitalism. Which, duh, everything is.

Racism existed before capitalism and can exist after. Examples: the Caste System, the Khmer Rouge. Shit even Christopher Columbus was about as racist as you can get and that’s right before capitalism kicks off. The Racialism you’re describing is just the ideological petina that capitalists put on their pre-existing racism.

The anglo saxons had apartheid laws against the celts in 6th century britain.

Sectarian and ethnic strife are nothing new. The concept of “races” is the secret sauce that makes racism racism

No I define racism as prejudice based of the system of racialism, which was invented in the 17th century.

Other forms of sectarian prejudice existed beforehand. Not racism

the system of racialism, which was invented in the 17th century.

And that’s somehow not White Supremacism?

Other forms of sectarian prejudice existed beforehand. Not racism

racism didn’t exist before the 1600s

lol

This is class reductionism right here. Racism was around long before the 17th century lmfao.

No it was not, the concept of race was invented around this time. Perhaps you mean prejudice and ethnic sectarianism? That certainly existed. Race did not. Might behoove you to do some reading on this subject before pontificating with false confidence

Lol, now you are just arguing semantics.

The celts were considered a race apart from the anglo saxons.

Ive seen plenty of people even prominent marxists say this, doug and ben from Zero books for example, repeat this line.

I have never heard of Doug and Ben and don’t know what they’re all on about. Class reductionists are a thing but idk if that’s what they are without reading their words.

Forget about class reductionism, how about any class analysis whatsoever? OP’s “analysis” is pure race reductionism and moralism without a single ounce of Marxist thought instilled.

Apparently using any class analysis whatsoever or referencing factual historical origins of things is “class reductionism” now?

I’m disagreeing with their “race reductionism” too if you read my earlier comments.

There was racism against celts and people perceived to be “others” long before the advent of capitalism dude, by all means keep screaming at me obnoxiously about how im a liberal who hasnt read marx (idgaf lol)

im not saying class doesnt play any factor at all, contrary to your weird straw-mans.

Im not beholden to marx like you are, i just want better outcomes for everyone and saying racism would “disappear with capitalism” is dangerously ignorant of history.

i have no problem saying im just a non sectarian leftist who wants the best for everyone.

if that’s what you got from “intertwined origins” you should really listen to it

Ask Hexbear is the place to ask and answer ~~thought-provoking~~ questions.

Rules:

Posts must ask a question.
If the question asked is serious, answer seriously.
Questions where you want to learn more about socialism are allowed, but questions in bad faith are not.
Try !feedback@hexbear.net if you’re having questions about regarding moderation, site policy, the site itself, development, volunteering or the mod team.

is there anyone here who really believes trumps campaign core isnt white identity politics and demographic anxiety at this point?

askchapo

!askchapo@hexbear.net

Community stats

Community moderators