Comment by comi [he/him]@hexbear.net on It's your daily squad struggle session: Ilhan Omar condemns China for human rights abuses against Uyghurs.

unfortunate reality is that it could be some sort of cultural genocide, I.e. changing their way of life by coercion. At the same time, their independence will result in cute military bases and short range missiles on chinese border, and changing their way of life just the same. Shitshow all around, in conclusion, us empire delenda est

it could be some sort of cultural genocide, I.e. changing their way of life by coercion.

This is a massive allegation that needs clear evidence to support it.

People who live under American-imperialist soft power are too fucking comfortable throwing around accusations of genocide. They also have a horrible track record actually opposing genocide.

Which is why I specified cultural part? I don’t think they murder them or anything like that, I think they are trying to integrate them in their economy, which, depending on your view of china, can be construed as capitalist integration for exploitation or elevation to modern living standards

And I quoted the “cultural” part. Cultural genocide is the intentional destruction of cultural artifacts and the eradication of a cultural identity.

depending on your view of china, can be construed as capitalist integration for exploitation or elevation to modern living standards

Neither of these are cultural genocide.

If you read a report of residential (sorry was wrong word) schools in usa or australia or canada for native Americans from liberal source, what would be the markers of difference with re-education camps in china? The only thing I see is the age of students

If there was evidence of China separating families, forbidding native languages, erasing all references to Uighur cultural identity, and sterilizing women - I would reconsider my position.

The only thing I see is the age of students

You are either whitewashing American crimes against indigenous people, or pushing unverified genocide allegations against China. Which is it?

Like, I actually cannot believe you wrote that. What the fuck.

I’m strictly referring to the practice of carrying of young Native American children to schools circa start of 20th century I think, not wider american genocide. The alleged goal was to integrate native americans by force into “civilized” society.

If my post reads like I’m dismissing other crimes, I apologize, maybe I should be more precise in wording.

Separation of families is precisely the allegation against china, no? main difference is that kids are not ripped from family at non-speaking age, and their language forgotten, so that’s a plus.

China is literally separating families though. They don’t get to keep their children in the internment camps.

With the Xinjiang camps, I haven’t seen evidence of and/or have seen evidence suggesting the lack of:

sexual/physical assault
terrible living conditions and deaths linked to said living conditions
forced labour
suppression of their native language/culture (I don’t really consider mandatory Mandarin lessons in and of itself to be language suppression)
extended durations without family contact

You can never show evidence that proves something isn’t happening.

Show me evidence that you don’t beat your wife.

Here’s a really good video that talks about the problem you bring up.

Tl;dw the erasure and othering of a culture was an integral part of the original definition of genocide, but when counties were voting on language (I think in the UN) to determine what could be punished as a genocide, many member countries refused to sign a law that included cultural erasure, forced assimilation, and the like because they were afraid that they could be prosecuted under such a law.

So our narrow definition of genocide comes from a process where the criminals got to write the rulebook.

Good thing there are no liberals amongus :dun-dun-dun: :ancom-heart:

Edit: emphasis on real bugs me, maybe change it to physical?

Oh shit cultural genocide isn’t real? Thank god that means the the irish weren’t kept from speaking you know irish or that occitan is still a thriving and alive language, hey all those kids that got ripped from their families because they were roma and had to be ‘civilized’ it’s ok it’s a relatively peaceful integration program.

I’m Roma, tbh I wouldn’t call what people did/do to us “cultural genocide” it is just straight up genocide. I don’t know if there is a specific difference (ESL speaker)? But I don’t see why it should be separated from a regular genocide and can feel like a downplay of the absolute horrendous extremes countries have gone to in trying to get rid of us completely. But again if there is a specific difference between genocide and cultural genocide, let me know. Maybe I am misinterpreting.

The original author who coined the term genocide would agree with your definition. The UN definition is narrower in scope, primarily because if it kept the original scope then many UN countries would refuse to sign the law out of fear they could be prosecuted for their own treatment of ethnic groups.

https://youtu.be/m316DcYhb8w

I’m sorry should we stop using the word cultural genocide because it could be used against leftist countries? Seriously fuck off if a government has systemically kept a people from speaking their language or passing on their culture or stop the teaching of said language and culture or tries to “educate” children in order to get rid of the ‘unwanted’ cultural elements I’m going to call it cultural genocide. If your honest line of thinking is “We shouldn’t use words like cultural genocide because it could be used against countries like China” let me both put your mind at ease and tell you what I think. People already use that language and will continue to use that language whether all leftists stop using it or not, and second I don’t fucking care about China, I’m not talking about China, I’m talking about cultural genocide being a real thing that has been used successfully and unsuccessfully to exterminate certain cultures, and I use exterminate quite deliberately here, I could give you other examples of cultural genocide where you can then go “Ok mass graves in Catalonia, enforced Castilian in schools as well as myriad of other things done under Franco were bad, but can we please not call it cultural genocide let’s just call it Castillianization.” like can we only call something a cultural genocide when it’s accompanied by smokestacks burning people, like it needs more violence because you imagine the whole thing as a completly non-violent affair.

Can you suggest a name for it then? It’s ethnoculturecide? I agree the word is hyper charged tbh with images of death camps, which are not related to this.

Genocide is the word for this. The author who coined the term genocide considered the cultural erasure and othering of an ethnic group to be an integral part of the definition of genocide, and that these things by themselves were sufficient to label something as a genocide without needing mass murder in addition to these things.

The UN definition narrowed the scope of genocide because many member nations would refuse to sign a law that included cultural erasure, forced assimilation, and the like out of fear that they could be prosecuted under such a law. The idea that these things aren’t as serious and don’t count as “real” genocide is the result of the criminals getting to write the rulebook.

Here’s a great video on the topic:

https://youtu.be/m316DcYhb8w

Eh, that’s fair enough :100-com:

That’s what I’ve said though about end state though. I agree motivation of organizers is likely nefarious, but the fact that they find sympathetic ears indicates some deep problem on the ground, be it oil developments and immigration of Chinese engineers, or kneejerk reactions from changing world around them in general, or maybe something else.

I don’t have any issues with any of that, I find coercive vocational training problematic, but it’s hard to penetrate the degree of coercion through propaganda

In most cases participation in these vocational schools is voluntary. They encourage lots of people to sign up.

It’s only mandatory in limited circumstances, such as if you have documented ties to extremist groups, or you have been convicted for a crime and have been assigned to a vocational school as part of your sentence.

And of course these kind of laws and programs can be abused, but I’ve seen absolutely nothing to suggest a pattern of abuse in any of the other policies, development, rhetoric, and practices in the region.

It’s the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

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It's your daily squad struggle session: Ilhan Omar condemns China for human rights abuses against Uyghurs.(hexbear.net)

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