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They’re leaving the church and joining QAnon or liberalism. As long as the base remains the same the superstructure will likewise remain the same. That being said I can’t deny that this excites me. The state I live in has some of the lowest religious participation in the USA and churches are still everywhere and are likewise packed on Sundays.
They’re leaving the church and joining QAnon or liberalism.
No, I don’t think that’s it. The boomer QAnon people are still in church. Younger people are leaving church because it is more obviously tied to politics in a way that’s blatantly a power grab. In the past, white evangelicals had a veneer of MoRaLiTy to hide behind, but Trump’s presidency destroyed that and in so doing ensured that millions of younger Christians left evangelicalism.
Along with greater LGBTQ+ acceptance among millenials and younger, many white evangelicals are leaving their megachurches and either leaving completely or attending mainline churches and calling themselves “exvangelicals” (I know).
There are some that just realized that church is a white supremacy thing and cut out the middle man to become nazis, but that’s a much smaller group.
Okay, so maybe they aren’t necessarily joining QAnon—or they can go to their megachurches and believe Trump is Jesus at the same time—but some are also joining liberal churches or just plain secular liberalism instead. I keep an eye on the exmormon subreddit and sometimes even listen to the Mormon Stories podcast—not because I’m a Mormon (or ever have been), but because I’m fascinated with people leaving one belief system and joining another. So many posts on that subreddit are just like people photographing themselves drinking coffee. I mean, I love coffee, and I think life would probably be less cool without coffee, and I understand that coffee is probably a symbol for these people of embarking on a new stage in their lives free from the Mormon Church, but I also have to wonder if that much has really changed about them. Like, if they could drink coffee, and if the women were allowed to bare their shoulders, how many of them would remain within Mormonism? I think that moving from Mormonism to liberalism (or more liberal churches) has also got to be pretty dissatisfying. I went on their subreddit a few months ago and (politely) said they should check out Marxism, and I think every comment I received was hostile.
But many of them also say that the hypocrisy of the church (which you mention) led them to do research and ask questions, and then within a few months they were finished. That’s pretty much the same reason I left liberalism. It seemed hypocritical to me, and could no longer explain the world in a satisfying way. At the same time, fascism was even dumber, which meant that I gravitated further toward the left.
Another random thought: I remember that in the Class Struggle board game, if large numbers of people leave organized religion, that counts as like some kind of bonus or boon for the workers. So although this issue is complex, we have at least one Official Marxist ™ claiming that this is a positive development.
They’re leaving the church and joining QAnon or liberalism.
It feels like those QAnon lunatics are evangelicals and evangelical churches seem to be doing well :bern-disgust:
Up until recent years (I’m talking like 15-20 years ago), evangelical churches were doing pretty well relative to mainline and Catholic churches. I know, evangelicals used to crow about that all the time. But p sure the data shows in more recent years evangelical churches are hemoragging members.
/r/atheism hours
“community institutions are dissolving at a faster rate than ever! we did it Reddit!”
⬇️
What about when those “community institutions” are usually insular and reactionary? And use their power to enforce white supremacy?
“And what if group is bad, is it bad then?” well fucking duh genius. And I’m sorry, are you saying poc aren’t religious/christian or are you saying they’re white supremacist? Why are you painting in such broad strokes? Aren’t African Americans the ones going to church the most?
Of course I’m not saying that. But the white evangelical bloc, whatever you want to call it, is probably the strongest force of reaction in the United States after the capitalists themselves. I’m glad to see their numbers go down.
What about when those “community institutions” are usually insular and reactionary?
Any institution can host reactionary leadership. Any institution can become insular over time.
What is the solution? Alienate ourselves for fear of coming in contact with these social elements does nothing to further our goals.
reactionary leadership
Except this is where the mass of members - not just the leadership - is highly reactionary. Arguably even more reactionary (source: was an evangelical for 30 years).
Lol pardon my fedora but “community institutions” Jesus fucking christ.
Organized religion in the US, specifically christianity, is the largest and most efficient pipeline to anti-LGBTQ/hyper capitalist/individualist/white supremacist/reactionary ideology - and has been since at least the 70’s.
Aside from the almost inherently reactionary ideology of these religious institutions, much like philanthropy the primary function of the Church is to act as domestic tax havens. If we taxed church’s in the US we’d generate something like $85 billion a year - 3x the amount needed to solve hunger in the US, 8x as much to solve homelessness. This is before the sheer network of brick & mortar church infrastructure that could (in my mind should) be seized and converted to shelters/health clinics/etc.
Long gone are the days of churches harvesting any ideals based in racial and economic justice. Referencing liberation theology, Catholic workers, and radical Christians as if that’s a serious portion of religious affiliation in this country and not just Joel Olsteen mouth breathers is just bordering on romanticism. The idea that this is also largely focused on “white evangelicals” is also dumb shit given 1 in 3 American evangelicals are POC..
Long story short, leftists need to drop this myth that church communities are ripe for radicalization and organizing. The death of religious affiliation and church membership is a net good and has no bearing on ones personal spiritual belief OR our ability to organize for a socialist future.
I agree. I mean, in the spirit of comradeship I don’t want to marginalize folks who, for example, believe in liberation theology. But yeah, the sheer size of Evangelicalism relative to more chill versions of Christianity in America means we have to treat it differently.
Though personally I say “white evangelical” because my personal experience has been 99.9% with specifically white evangelicals. I don’t want to presume the beliefs and attitudes of POC evangelicals.
Sure - but herein lies the problem imo. Criticism of the institutions isn’t an attack on your personal beliefs. We need to separate our personal spiritual beliefs from the institutions that are very reactionary, with real political power, on a global scale, that is almost always weaponized against our goals of racial justice, solidarity, anti-imperialism, LGBTQ rights, and more.
Idk, what are we supposed to do instead? In my personal experience, the only thing my church did as “community organizing” was to protest abortion clinics (they took credit for multiple clinics being taken down but idk how big their involvement was) and support our wars in the middle east. but I was raised a white catholic, so your milage my vary. It would be interesting to see which communities are leaving churches (I was pretty religious til I realized I’m queer)
Yeah, I dont see this as a necessarily good thing either and I’m not even religious. The main culprit for declining church membership is probably dissolution of all social bonds under the fist of capitalism, not some kind of slowly enlightening population. Even the wackiest evangelicals leaving churches aren’t changing what’s in their heads. They’re just becoming even more deluded conspiracy theorists.
My evangelical family and friends have been spinning this as “well the people leaving were the ones who weren’t really into in the first place” and that the “real” believers are as strong as ever… :cope:
A huge part of this is the erosion of all social institutions. I’m originally from a rural southern place, so churches to me aren’t just “place you go to do religious things” it’s more like the central social apparatus for the town. The petite bourgeois, workers, and farmers all end up in the same pews on Sunday. It’s where people meet their spouses. It’s where holiday events are held. The religious part is just an aesthetic for a lot of people.
Also, don’t get me wrong. I’m not necessarily praising this kind of community structure, because the one I attended as a kid was rampant with homophobia and Islamophobia. I’m just hoping to express that churches exist as more than just something like “I believe in this thing so that means I go to this place.” They’re social instutions like other things and neoliberal capitalism does not give a shit. Nothing is sacred. Nothing has territory. People need to be alone, isolated, scared, and constantly generating profit.
The foundational values might be horrible but I can’t help feeling envious of people who are part of a social institution. When you’re young there is school/college but after that there’s nothing. Just work and consumption. Once the labour movement was a social institution but today there isn’t really anything.
