Got into a conversation with someone today and I mentioned the Soviets liberated a lot of Nazi camps. They looked at me like I was evil and said “Well they’re bombing innocent people today and accusing them of being Nazis”
I said that while I’m not a fan of modern Russia, the Azov Battalion is in fact Nazi, and Ukraine has had a Nazi problem for a while.
They didn’t know who Azov are and just said “Well they’re probably all gone now. They’re just bombing innocent people.”
I’m sick of people thinking I’m some kind of evil modern Russian oligarchy stan or crazy conspiracy theorist just because I acknowledge the fact that Nazis exist and are a big problem. If Ukraine wins, those strengthened Nazi groups that are supported by western aid and the Ukraine government are going to go full fascist.
There’s nothing else you can do. Maybe, but probably not, you broke the spell that allows someone to think this is a straightforward matter of good vs. evil.
That’s the hard part. I walk on eggshells at work over this stuff, but some people trust me enough or are open minded enough that they seem to believe me when I say something like Azov is a bunch of nazis and I was reading about them long before this war started, or if I point out that Ukraine has been at war with Donbas for 8 years and it this point it doesn’t seem like it ever will or should be part of Ukraine again.
I try to tone down the critique of American hegemony and just talk around it.
You fallen for the first trick: “I was talking about soviets, not modern russians”.
Nazis in ukraine is ideological porky patina over war, while they exist (there are some volnov usb videos, but I didn’t want to hurt myself looking into them), it’s not fundamentally that different than contras/death squads in other places, reinforcing will of capital. Plus there are images of tattoos/unit insignias of questionable variety
I was incredibly lucky that one of the only other communists at my job was working when it came up. Having someone to back me up when I cringed at photos of Azov’s pinup girls at the very least deflated my lib coworkers’ moral outrage.
Also I ran into a Ukrainian dude selling jewelry for refugee donations months before the invasion. I feel like that really helps with segueing into the complete 180 on the MSM narrative.
What’s this? Tavor rifles? From Israel? Gosh, it’s almost as if Israel supports them. Oh wait they do. Tavor rifles are produced under license from Israel Weapon Industries and as such were manufactured and exported authorized by Israeli government bodies.
Well that’s probably a Trump conspiracy theory, so let’s consult The Atlantic Council, a hardcore NATO organization: Why [Ukrainian Nazis] should not be designated a foreign terrorist organization.
The post admitted that it is “indisputable” that Azov’s ideology is rooted in Nazism, and the “leading core of” it “was formed by the far right.” But Shekhovtsov argued that Azov must not be designated a terrorist organization because it is a special operations detachment of the Ukrainian National Guard, and therefore “an integral part of official structures” of the state, following “orders given by the Interior Ministry.”
Labeling this Ukrainian government-sponsored Nazi group a terrorist organization would be a “gift to the Kremlin,” Shekhovtsov insisted.
NATO thought so poorly of these Nazis that they embedded a journalist in their violent fascist group for a sympathetic inside look. The “Battle For Mariupol” report makes absolutely no mention of their fascist ideology.
Did the SuccDems do this song and dance with the Freikorps last time around?
But Shekhovtsov argued that Azov must not be designated a terrorist organization because it is a special operations detachment of the Ukrainian National Guard, and therefore “an integral part of official structures” of the state, following “orders given by the Interior Ministry.”
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Most people have a two-valued orientation: black & white, good & evil, love & hate. It’s an extremely effective propaganda tool, heavily utilized by the Nazi party to paint them as the only party that should exist. It’s so effective because of the frustration you feel, it’s hard to establish any middle ground, or even discuss it sensibly. What makes matter worse is that Russia is hated, which promotes even more two-valued orientation, and makes them assume you’re taking the polar opposite stance of Russia Good.
To combat two-value orientation is to systematically apply multi-value orientation. Statements shouldn’t be true or false but truth-valued somewhere between 0-100%. If someone tells you that all labor unions are a racket, saying “No, they aren’t” would promote a battle, but saying “Only 1 in 100 unions are a racket, where did you hear they are all rackets?” can promote a more meaningful dialog.
I think an argument would go something like this, anyone is welcome to help, im not great at this & my details are lacking:
- One of the recent US mass shootings was from a far right extremist, ukraine also had far right extremists
- There were some fringe far right extremist rallies in ukraine, including marches like what happened in Charlottesvilles
- The Azov movement targeted far right extremists for recruitment for an ultranationalist agenda
- The Azov movement targeted russian separatists in ukraine after the succession referendum was successfully voted on and passed
- The Azov movement continues to be on the front lines, with far right extremists being indistinguishable from other honest fighters
