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Best deal they’re likely to get, so of course the coup government is going to wipe their ass with it and choose Berlin 1945. I’m sure all the conscripts and their families will love that. I hope I’m wrong, but we’ve stopped them from surrendering before. Thinking in Blackrock terms, why let them stop now when land prices have so much lower to fall?
Yes, the opposition to ww1-style meat grinders fought for the benefit of military and real estate companies is a typical giveaway. You on the other hand would be calling people pinkos for protesting the Vietnam war, and Saddam Lovers 30 years after that.
I always wonder if these people realize they would be violently opposed to the civil rights movement I’d they were alive then.
Average imperial core lemmitor lib counterargument.
This deal is probably the last chance to save anything of Ukraine, and it will naturally be rejected because the west wants to fight this war to the last Ukrainian. People cheering this on really need to ask themselves what this was all for. Ukraine is in a far worse situation today than it was two years ago, and it will be in a worse situation with each and every day that passes. Western support peaked during the disastrous summer offensive last year, and Ukraine is now running out of trained and motivated soldiers. It’s obvious to anyone with a functioning brain what the end result of all this will be.
Libs who think this offer is a bad thing, live in a completely invented reality
In my opinion this,
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
Is a pretty lazy argument. Most people have no interest in shedding blood, nor are they Ukrainian or Russian.
I think explaining western encroachment and that a lot of the modern militant Ukrainians are ideological descendants of Bandera and full-on fascists is the better way to go.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave? Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
“You oppose Russia yet you don’t want to go fight them yourself, why?” is a ridiculous question that you’re pretending is a rational one. You’re intellectually dishonest af here, and you say you’re “not arguing” simply because you’re putting your absolute bullshit in the form of a question.
And my question is why are you putting everything on the people who were invaded and not the aggressor? Are the Russian people not also being senselessly killed in a war started by their government?
The point is that many people caught up in the propaganda seem perfectly happy to let an infinite number of Ukrainians die for their project. It’s apparently very important to fight Russia with life and life (Ukrainian), but not so important that they’d take any risk themselves whatsoever. It speaks to both the dehumanization of the Ukrainian people, of treating them like fictional heroes rather than conscripts pushed around by larger forces, as well as the implicit sociopathy of the armchair warhawk. The hope, of course, is that the inconsistency prompts someone to actually question their own inconsistencies, as most people don’t think of themselves as warhawks or several times more human than a Ukrainian.
Though there are some other incorrect lines of thought in your comment.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave?
That is not a human on this Lemmy server who can think and respond to the point. And even if you were in the room with some powerful person with the capacity to personally impact the outcome, your request would mean nothing because that’s not how geopolitics work.
These are not comparable things. Instead, this rhetoric is a thought-terminating cliche intended to recenter The Bad Guy ™ rather than address the point made.
Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
Who is talking to countries? We are people talking to one another.
If this was the deal after Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula, I could see it being ok. However, this is the second invasion in a decade.
What keeps Russia from invading a decade later?
Not having Ukraine join NATO while saying “hey we might give ukraine nukes that could hit Moscow in 4 minutes”
Taking everything you say at face value, the options for Ukraine are:
- Take a deal that maybe you can’t trust, but it at least gives you time to breathe.
- Keep fighting, and with the war going how it is eventually lose more than what you’ve already lost.
- Attempt to draw other states into the conflict so that you have a shot at what might be considered a victory, likely years more down the road under the best of circumstances.
There is no justification for 2, and 3 is highly unlikely – if other states haven’t entered the war already, they’re not going to do so now.
They will.
Russia is running on fumes and Ukraine is continuing to bolster up. Russia needs time to reup
This has been the narrative since shortly after the war began. All that’s happened since is Russia has slowly advanced.
Meanwhile in the real world
- https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-army-15-percent-larger-when-attacked-ukraine-us-general-2024-4
- https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine
- https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/11/christopher-cavoli-russian-military-losses-00151718
- https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html
- https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399
- https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2024/en/1-russian-armed-forces-and-the-war-in-ukraine/1-3-russian-military-industry/
You stupid motherfuckers have been saying this shit since the war began without even the slightest bit of realization that Russia is an actual industrialized, manufacturing power, while the west has shipped almost all of its actual production to China and SEA
Ukraine is literally constantly running out of shit despite the entirety of NATO dumping military supplies on them and they’re the ones conscripting 40+ year old men but lol “Russia is running on fumes”
“Why hasn’t Russia won yet” because they’re winning, stupid, they are winning a war of attrition, the fact that they’re winning doesn’t mean they can just magically teleport troops into Kiev and declare Game Over. This isn’t some fucking paradox game, moron. The winning move is to keep grinding Ukraine into dust, not whatever dumbass shit you think Russia needs to be doing to win the war.
I can’t stress enough how fucking stupid you are if you think Ukraine’s current conscription reality is in any way indicative of them “bolstering up”
