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Why don’t they just agree and join NATO anyway?

Joining NATO’s not an instant process and Russia would just restart the war the second they got a whiff of the process starting.

I suppose Ukraine and NATO could try to work in secret but it’d be a very dangerous game, and would rely on the total cooperation of a not entirely united alliance.

Turkey would probably informed Russia immediately, or maybe Polish minister would brag on twitter like in case of Nordstream sabotage.

Yeah, something of that proportion could not be kept secret even if all NATO member states were all in total agreement and unity and even with the avowed silence of high officials. It also would at least partially defeat the purpose of NATO if a state joining it were to be kept secret.

Because that eould be admitting defeat which loses a ton of territory and abandons a lot of Ukranian.

Russia is not anywhere close to winning the war, so there is no reason to capitulate.

What does “winning the war” look like to you?

Ukraine has been reduced to sending press gangs to kidnap old men to the front lines.

This isn’t capitulation, this is cutting your losses while you have something left to hold onto.

There is absolutely reason to capitulate: the fact that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have an average age above 40 and are absolutely scraping the barrel by conscripting any poor man they find. There is no universe where Ukraine pushes back the front to recover any substantial amount of territory. They have already attempted to launch counteroffensives in better conditions, and all they’ve achieved is to slow down Russia, never actually regaining any territory. The only reason they’re even in the war still is because NATO wants to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to weaken Russia, and corrupt Ukrainian politicians are making a quick buck by privatizing they country in the meantime. This is obviously not sustainable long term; in another year or two they won’t be able to recruit more people, or they’ll run out of artillery shlels.

Can’t join NATO with an existing territorial dispute. “Agreeing and joining NATO anyways” would be an official admission by the Ukrainian government that the territories currently held by Russia are not part of Ukraine anymore.

Presumably there are enough sane Ukrainian officials left to not want to wake up to nuclear hellfire.

“Why don’t they just continue to lie and break treaties and do whatever they want instead?” - deffinitly the good guys

well that’s 2 absolute shit ass takes from “@midwest.social” in this thread, they’re not sending their best

I was asking a question and received many helpful and some not so helpful answers.

The answer is nuclear war hope that helps

Sometimes even realists and historical materialists wake up on the wrong side of the bed, and aren’t in the mood to answer the same question again, especially when it’s often asked in bad faith.

Listen, the pollen count has been through the roof here lately, we can’t breathe well enough to get oxygen to the brain.

I made this comment more or less jokingly, but today I’m actually miserable. Jokes on me.

I’ll answer in two parts.

First, don’t assume a post-peace-deal Ukraine would be allowed into NATO. There has never been any serious attempt to allow them in. Just threats for Ukraine to begin the process. It is not unlikely that NATO wouldn’t even let them in.

Second, Russia could just invade again.

Best deal they’re likely to get, so of course the coup government is going to wipe their ass with it and choose Berlin 1945. I’m sure all the conscripts and their families will love that. I hope I’m wrong, but we’ve stopped them from surrendering before. Thinking in Blackrock terms, why let them stop now when land prices have so much lower to fall?

Yes, the opposition to ww1-style meat grinders fought for the benefit of military and real estate companies is a typical giveaway. You on the other hand would be calling people pinkos for protesting the Vietnam war, and Saddam Lovers 30 years after that.

I always wonder if these people realize they would be violently opposed to the civil rights movement I’d they were alive then.

Do you have anything of substance to add?

:smuglord: “you’re from Hexbear” isn’t an argument

MODDDDDDSSS HEXBEARS ARE POSTING AGAIN MODDDDSSSS

and I didn’t have to look at yours to know you’re a lib

Why because they’re the only one not suggesting “Russia should abaondon their two year long successful military operataion because that’s what I, a whiny American liberal, want.”

Average imperial core lemmitor lib counterargument.

This deal is probably the last chance to save anything of Ukraine, and it will naturally be rejected because the west wants to fight this war to the last Ukrainian. People cheering this on really need to ask themselves what this was all for. Ukraine is in a far worse situation today than it was two years ago, and it will be in a worse situation with each and every day that passes. Western support peaked during the disastrous summer offensive last year, and Ukraine is now running out of trained and motivated soldiers. It’s obvious to anyone with a functioning brain what the end result of all this will be.

If this was the deal after Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula, I could see it being ok. However, this is the second invasion in a decade.

What keeps Russia from invading a decade later?

Not giving Russia a political reason to for starters.

Not having Ukraine join NATO while saying “hey we might give ukraine nukes that could hit Moscow in 4 minutes”

Not to play into Hexbear stereotypes, but unless there are some dramatic political changes in Ukraine, I’d rather Russia invade Ukraine again in 10 years to be honest.

I wouldn’t trust Nazis with nukes.

Taking everything you say at face value, the options for Ukraine are:

Take a deal that maybe you can’t trust, but it at least gives you time to breathe.
Keep fighting, and with the war going how it is eventually lose more than what you’ve already lost.
Attempt to draw other states into the conflict so that you have a shot at what might be considered a victory, likely years more down the road under the best of circumstances.

There is no justification for 2, and 3 is highly unlikely – if other states haven’t entered the war already, they’re not going to do so now.

They will.

Russia is running on fumes and Ukraine is continuing to bolster up. Russia needs time to reup

This has been the narrative since shortly after the war began. All that’s happened since is Russia has slowly advanced.

shouldn’t they have won like a year ago at this point? lol

lol notice there’s no response to this

You stupid motherfuckers have been saying this shit since the war began without even the slightest bit of realization that Russia is an actual industrialized, manufacturing power, while the west has shipped almost all of its actual production to China and SEA

Ukraine is literally constantly running out of shit despite the entirety of NATO dumping military supplies on them and they’re the ones conscripting 40+ year old men but lol “Russia is running on fumes”

“Why hasn’t Russia won yet” because they’re winning, stupid, they are winning a war of attrition, the fact that they’re winning doesn’t mean they can just magically teleport troops into Kiev and declare Game Over. This isn’t some fucking paradox game, moron. The winning move is to keep grinding Ukraine into dust, not whatever dumbass shit you think Russia needs to be doing to win the war.

I can’t stress enough how fucking stupid you are if you think Ukraine’s current conscription reality is in any way indicative of them “bolstering up”

What keeps Russia from taking more territory now until there’s no Ukraine left?

Libs who think this offer is a bad thing, live in a completely invented reality

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