Spoiler alert, the show will be spoiled if you view the comments here. Enter at your own risk. The show is quite interesting. Almost all of the characters are morally ambiguous, with character arcs that always surprise the audience.
Oh you finished season 4? Here’s how Oberyn can still win:
so sure my take is the following the burning king’s landing scene is probably the most on brand thing dany does the whole series like it fits with her actions while on exile like she burned a man so she could have both his slaves and keep her dragons, and while i understand the books make it more obvious that she is slowly getting crazier, the last season sucks more because of how dumb the whole WINTER IS COMING becomes as they solved that shit pretty quick, also Harrenhal castle being burned by her ancestor made me think that she would do something of that nature on king’s landing, so i don’t know i really expected her doing some cruel shit
I replied to this, and somehow it got lost without posting! Damn, I’ll try to do it again. I think I hit enter, thought it posted, and moved on.
“Winter is Coming” was definitely over-played to the point of being cliche.
I don’t remember Harrenhal. Remind me when that was? I am so bad with names, seriously, at least twice an episode I would ask my wife who is that, when someone mentioned someone else by name.
I vaguely remember people talking about that scene before I saw the show, and didn’t recognize the names. And also knew that Hillary supporters were really upset by the ending. So I sort of knew what was coming. But I really didn’t think she would go that far overboard. I mean, she obviously could have just burned the castle, and let the soldiers do the rest. But the signs were there. We knew she wanted to burn the city because she said so a few times, and was told not to every time by Tyrian. But he was also wrong so many times, that she was fed up with taking his advice.
I guess her story was a classic tragedy. We grow to like her more and more in the beginning, then we watch her stumble a few times, but we cheer her on. But all along she was annoyingly arrogant and entitled, especially for a blonde white woman telling POC what to do. It hit me in the Qarth scene when all of her Dathraky tribe was killed while she was in a room meeting someone. I know it was sort of out of her control. But also, she fucked up. What kind of leader lets her whole tribe get killed? And I cringed every time she said something like “the iron throne was promised to me”. Even when she is killed at the end, I was half-expecting they work something out and she becomes good. Shows what a liberal I am, I guess. They kind of gave it away though with all the homage language of Bush’s Iraq war. “We are liberators, and we will liberate everyone, just like we did here.” That was more cringe, because nobody got liberated in King’s landing, unless “liberated” is some spiritual metaphor for death.
I was expecting her to kick some ass and win. But I didn’t anticipate that Jon Snow would have to take her down, because I assumed he then become king in that situation, but logistically, that couldn’t have worked, so I didn’t think about it much.
like first about harrenhall the idea is really interesting, so before the targeryans the ironborn took like most of westeros over and their king haren makes a gigantic castle with walls that could stop any assault, and then the dragons come and just fly over the wall and burn it down, it is the castle in ruins that they take arya and genry on season 2 where they meet the mountain, it is pretty much supposed to be a king’s seat of power so there is this paralel with what dany does at kings landing and the whole targeryans duality is a strong motif on dany like there is this sentence “King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.”
The whole winter thing just really gets overplayed but if it was rough like real fucked it would at least had a payoff imagine if jon died in there and they had to fight unded jon or something of that but no THE WRITERS ARE COWARDS no real protagonist death no matter how fucked their situation goes let’s just go see other thing while they just escape this death trap unscared like literally the opposite of what grrm would do it is baffling that they did that
i actually love that they went there on the bush homage it was such a gut punch like the contrast of the cruelty seen with the whole liberator things she is saying, which is also a play on the fact that she called herself the breaker of chains a liberator, and there is a really sneaky thing that is not mentioned explicitly but she has really at every single point of the history used violence and power to reach her goal, she is ruthless and it works every single time so why wouldn’t it work now? anyhow i would suggest reading the books because A) they are good B)there are some characters who did not make into the series especially one of my favourites which is patchface a court jester for stannis which literally seems to be predicting the future but no one pays attention to what he is saying because he is mad it is really interesting stuff and also you get to just complain about george not writting and doing dumb stuff like making a game with from software
THE WRITERS ARE COWARDS no real protagonist death no matter how fucked their situation goes
Yea, I noticed that in season 7. The main characters never die in battle. So the suspense of the battles was gone. Was that the case in the books?
she has really at every single point of the history used violence and power to reach her goal
Thats interesting. And I think her plotline was played like a classic tragedy. We should have seen it coming, and hated her. But they did present her as good as much as possible so we should want her to win. Part was probably that we wanted to see those dragons kick ass for the power of good. Partly because she is sexy. But you’re right, she was not good. She didn’t have any of that coalition building power that Jon Snow had, or inspiring people to join. Well, the slaves she feed joined her because she freed them and gave them a choice to go. That was really her best moment. But she couldn’t keep Moreen, because she ruled from the to of a pyramid. That was a red flag too. I think it was really showed at Winterfell, after the night battle, when she wasn’t celebrating. Nobody wanted to talk to her. She hadn’t even made any friends. Great films have morally ambiguous characters though, so we like them, but also wonder if we should be liking them. And she definitely had that all the way to the end. For everyone else, we figured out if they were good or bad much earlier. Maybe thats why people complain about the last two seasons. The ambiguous characters were sort of forced to take a side and become boring.
I know this has been said before but, I still can’t stop being impressed of a show being so singlehandedly sunk with one season. From cultural juggernaut to complete footnote in a matter of months. Kudos to D&D, pop culture’s greatest bedshitters.
(And honestly, I feel bad for you because I’m sure you want to talk about Tyrion or Jon’s Choice or the world but just knowing what I know and having watched the last season, it’s all permanently stained. It’s really hard to muster thought over something I know had no thought put beforehand)
The only thing I can force myself to have enough energy about for a discussion is how to handle this series for a newcomer. I still think I can make a more bingeable version, but in short:
- S.01-04, absolute watch
- S.05, you can skip the boring eps (It doesn’t matter anyways. None of it really does)
- S.06, mostly holds up.
Would love to hear if that would be the way you’d do it too.
I may be in the minority here, but I really think that if you’re going to watch it, watch it all. At least you’ll have nice low expectations going into S8 so you won’t be disappointed.
I generally agree with your rankings though, except I think S6 has some of the best episodes in the whole show (The Door & Battle of the Bastards). S7 would be about the same as 5.
I may be in the minority here, but I really think that if you’re going to watch it, watch it all. At least you’ll have nice low expectations going into S8 so you won’t be disappointed.
I just couldn’t ask that of everyone. I would warn them of what happens next and give them the chance to keep the show at the point they feel most happy with it (either 4 or 6 works). Otherwise, all your lovely fantheories and discussions will just wither shortly after finishing S08. Make your own GoT, it will always be better than D&Ds.
I generally agree with your rankings though, except I think S6 has some of the best episodes in the whole show (The Door & Battle of the Bastards). S7 would be about the same as 5.
Agreed, season 6 had some fantastic popcorn moments for you and your buddies. S07 was worse IMO just cus it’s closer to the desolation that is s08, as such you get less interesting characters, less interesting plot AND more hanging threads and suspense that you know goes nowhere. Had some good music in it, tho, Ramin never stopped doing his best.
I heard that the whole staff basically wanted to move on to other projects, and this played a role in its self-destruction
SPICY HABANERO TAKE: Just another project ruined by capitalism (Story that couldn’t be passed to other creatives because of high financial risk & limitations of the current showrunner model + toxic fan culture).
Not that strong on this one, I agree with you that it was mostly the result of not caring about it and letting it go HARD but still, I considered it would be worth imagining how things could have turned out under a different model.
God I forgot about that show until now. I think it’s amazing how quickly a shit ending can erase almost any trace of a show from pop culture
Do you think it should have ended with Daneris on the throne? I was feeling like I was finally understanding how things worked in that world, and felt like that would have been the correct ending. But instead, they sort of ended it like a Hollywood film, where the good guys all live and live happily ever after and the bad guys die.
Honestly I would have been happy with anyone on the throne just as long as it made sense why they were there. I think the problem with the last season was that every character was just there to do their One Thing rather than have an actual arc. Arya kills the Night King, Sandor has Cleganebowl, Bran becomes king. The most frustrating part to me is that the signs the show was becoming shit were there as early as season 5
interesting
with character arcs that always surprise the audience
Here is why the last season(s) is (are) shitty and why reddit’s freefolk are still salty about the “we wanted to subvert expectation” thing.
Surprising character arcs are interesting if and only if it comes with a well paced and well written plot that still makes it believable. Imagine a “Che part 2: the USA” that would last 15 minutes, where he goes to New York to manage a hedge fund. That would be surprising for sure, but that would not make any sense.
That’s what was so powerful with the first seasons of that show. After every single twist, everybody was like “I did not see that coming. I’m shocked and surprised it happened. Though it makes perfect sense and I totally understand why and how it hapenned.”. Even better, during a re-watch I often saw myself thinking “How did I not see the next twist coming? They’re hinting at it everywhere.”.
during a re-watch I often saw myself thinking “How did I not see the next twist coming? They’re hinting at it everywhere.”.
Did you feel that way about the last seasons too? When Jamie Lannister stayed at Winterfell with his brother and others, then left to be loyal to his sister again, I was surprised. But I should have seen it coming. All the signs were there. Same with Denaris burning Kings Landing. She said she wanted to do that over and over, but only held back to appease Tyrian. Once she decided to stop listening to him, we should have expected it. So, I agree with you, but I think it applies to the later episodes too. I definitely didn’t see Bran becoming king. It makes sense though, he is the one most likely to be a benevolent ruler. And he was treated as a major character throughout the show, seemingly out of the blue to be honest. I mean, his story didn’t really relate much to the other stories until the last season.
Jamie Lannister […] I was surprised. But I should have seen it coming.
Jaime arrived at Winterfell at the end of episode 1 and left at the end of episode 4. They teleported him in and out of there, just so that he could participate in the “epic battle” where he was definitely not needed.
Same with Denaris burning Kings Landing. She said she wanted to do that over and over, but only held back to appease Tyrian.
“again and again” being between the middle of episode 4 and the start of episode 5.
Bran becoming king. It makes sense though
Oh come on, it does not. He literally says “I can never be Lord of anything. I’m the Three-Eyed Raven.” 4 episodes before, and, in between, does nothing except letting die those who protect him (as he has always done through the show)
his story didn’t really relate much to the other stories until the last season.
You must mean until the last 15 minutes.
I do not totally disagree with you: this way of ending the series could make total sense on paper. But it’s not a problem of how the character’s arcs end. It’s a problem of pacing and writing. You would need an entire season to bring forth these evolutions in a subtle way. Otherwise you’re not bending the arcs, you’re just breaking them in half.
