i tried searching through some databases and no like actual research reports came up on it, so like can we just use that as a be-all-end-all?
idk if that kind of thing exists. i did convince a lib on reddit the other day simply by pointing out “no muslim country in the world agrees with the idea that there is a genocide happening in china, why is it that the only people who care about muslims are white christian countries with a history of brutally slaughtering muslims?”
and thats really the strongest narrative for the truth right now. if there was a genocide against muslims, wouldn’t there be at least one muslim country that would acknowledge it? why isn’t there currently? make the genocide narrative people explain to you why no muslim countries agree with their narrative
I have tried this, and they just retort that all of those countries must be in China’s pocket for economic reasons and helping them cover it up.
A good one is just talking about yemen. “If these politicians care about human rights so much, there’s something very easy they can do: stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, stop giving Saudi Arabia intelligence, etc. American arm companies have made 13 billion dollars off of the Yemen war. 20 million Yemenis need human rights assistance according to the UN. But they don’t. So I don’t really trust that they genuinely care about those other Muslims.” Denying a purported genocide looks to the regular person similar to holocaust denial. It’s a lot easier to be like “look, idk what’s going on over there, but there’s another group of Muslims that western countries could help much easier, but they don’t. They should. Why don’t they? Isn’t that weird?”
This is the only answer that does it for me personally. As someone who’s very cautious to jump to conclusions, I basically have given up understanding what’s going on (maybe the propaganda got to me?) But luckily I can be 100% sure that A. America genocides muslims every day and B. if China is genociding muslims too there’s nothing we can reasonably do and C. if an action should be taken, it should be to stop US militarism. This is why I’ve tried not to get wrapped up in this struggle session, because I think any leftist can unite behind this idea.
Of course this logic assumes that you don’t actively support bombing the middle east.
Most of them do that, but every now and again the person you’re talking to will go, “wow, yeah, that doesnt actually make any sense. maybe im being lied to.” and even if you dont directly convince the person you’re speaking to, there are tons of other people who will see that exchange and look into it
Do people even publish peer reviewed articles on things like that? Is there a “Proof of Rohingya genocide” article in Nature or something?
they would use zenz if they had something better …
It’s amazing how everything keeps coming back to Zenz. Imagine using the word of one guy, who has an obvious axe to grind with China and outside of that is a reactionary chirstian, as your source that a genocide is happening.
you know, its really difficult to say whether iraq has weapons of mass destruction. idk dude. i think taking a totally neutral stance on this issue is the right way to go, because nothing bad could possibly happen as a result of this narrative
the official consensus is that there is a genocide happening
No, it’s not. Practically nobody is saying this outside of the US and five eyes.
Thinking the US would ever invade and/or engage in a hot war type scenario with China is baby brain shit. Also, to think the US would need to conjure up a global genocide conspiracy in China to engage in a cold war (which some would argue has already been going on since the 60’s) is also dumb dumb shit.
China & the US are in a historically unprecedented, globally encompassing and intertwined economic human centipede who’s existence depends on one another and as long as the countries respective oligarchs pockets are getting greased nothing is going to happen. And no, this isn’t the same as “well everyone thought after WW1 there wouldn’t be a WW2 because our economies were so interconnected diarrhea noises”
I share the same sentiment above - having a position on this is pointless. You’re weird if you’re outspoken about this trying to prove a genocide - you’re even weirder defending China. The only fact we have at hand is that the US kills Muslims every day. If China is doing the same, we couldn’t (and fucking shouldn’t) do anything about it. All we can do is fight to end the US war machine. It’s a pointless thought experiment.
look dude, fundamentally i just think the truth is important. thats all there is to it. stop rambling at me you fuckin weirdo
It’s really not at all difficult to say because even the most exaggerated claims don’t rise to meet the level of genocide. There’s not even a question of whether significant numbers of people are being killed. There aren’t, even people like Zenz aren’t alleging that this is happening. The most egregious accusations are sterilization which there is no evidence of, and mostly even the people alleging “sterilization” (again like Zenz) say they are actually talking about IUDs which is not sterilization at all.
What to make of it?
Looks like a standard domestic intelligence sweep in an area with an active terrorist insurrection (Bulletin 20 indicates via a quick estimate that at least 10,000 active islamist insurrectionaries exist in the region.)
The only document I see that posits any major concern is bulletin 14, but I’d need to know if those are actual standard weekly numbers or the number of suspicious persons caught up in the initial sweep (I suspect the latter looking at the numbers in bulletin 20.) A lot also depends on if “sent to vocational training” means generally detained for a year or applied to one of the day facilities we know exist, and in what proportion.
Additionally, the described camp conditions, if adhered to, are actually better than I had expected. Equal to a low security reformist prison in Europe. Note for example that communication with family is mandated.
Now I’m not saying that this is a good thing. China has clearly detained at least fifty thousand people for at least a year in a re-education camp, and is going about this in a way I’d deeply criticise if it was, say, coalition forces in Iraq (oh wait, they did far worse).
There are serious issues here about forced cultural assimilation and labour with people who might be extremist but not active politically. Additionally I have no doubt that Han Chauvinism drives wrongful arrests and police excesses take place in these facilities because even in China ACAB.
I think there’s a lot of room to criticise these facilities for what they are, an overly authoritarian and wrong-headed way to secure a population that is ripe for CIA and Saudi radicalisation (And which has been badly managed by CPC administration in the area, these things never appear in a vacuum ) while acknowledging that this isn’t a genocide and is a better and more humane counter-insurgency strategy than the US has ever done
There are really bad English translations online.
…thats not a good metric for assessing allegedly ongoing genocides
Academia is expected, as well as some other organizations, to work on those questions though if it is going on since 6 years at least. Though in terms of torture during the Iraq war (so US torture and black sites and all that), it took nearly 12 years to have sensible reports produced within the US. Outside of it, funnily enough, it was a tad faster.
