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12 points
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“class” has a very specific Marxist definition. Explain to me, using Marx/Engels Lenins definition, what class was created under Stalin

bureaucratic bureaucratic bureaucratic bureaucratic

This means nothing. All “bureaucratic” means in reality was that the Soviet Union was highly organised because the only thing the working class has is lockstep organisation and discipline

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Why did the soviet union have create arbitary jobs that didnt contribute to peoples general wealth and wellbeing instead of just distributing resources as needed on local basis

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11 points
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You can’t just jump over stages of historical development. If what you’re saying is true - that a revolution means knocking down the capitalist state and walking straight into classless communism…

Then why did Marx, Engels and Lenin specifically say that the period between capitalism and communism can be none other than the dictatorship of the proletariat?

In reality, however, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less than in the monarchy; and at best an evil inherited by the proletariat after its victorious struggle for class supremacy, whose worst sides the proletariat, just like the Commune, cannot avoid having to lop off at the earliest possible moment, until such time as a new generation, reared in new and free social conditions, will be able to throw the entire lumber of the state on the scrap-heap.

Of late, the Social-Democratic philistine has once more been filled with wholesome terror at the words: Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Well and good, gentlemen, do you want to know what this dictatorship looks like? Look at the Paris Commune. That was the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Engels

The people’s state has been flung in our teeth ad nauseam by the anarchists, although Marx’s anti-Proudhon piece and after it the Communist Manifesto declare outright that, with the introduction of the socialist order of society, the state will dissolve of itself and disappear. Now, since the state is merely a transitional institution of which use is made in the struggle, in the revolution, to keep down one’s enemies by force, it is utter nonsense to speak of a free people’s state; so long as the proletariat still makes use of the state, it makes use of it, not for the purpose of freedom, but of keeping down its enemies and, as soon as there can be any question of freedom, the state as such ceases to exist.

Engels

The question then arises: What transformation will the state undergo in communist society? In other words, what social functions will remain in existence there that are analogous to present state functions? This question can only be answered scientifically, and one does not get a flea-hop nearer to the problem by a thousand-fold combination of the word ‘people’ with the word ‘state’. Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

Marx

to peoples general wealth and wellbeing instead of just distributing resources as needed on local basis

This was for the communist future, when the progress of the productive forces permits the abolition of scarcity, and when social consciousness, ingrained desire and sheer force of habit leads all workers voluntarily to participate according to their ability in everyday production, so that distribution of articles of consumption can be a matter of each one taking freely from the public stores according to need.

The motto, rather, was “…to each according to the amount of labor performed.” This meant not taking freely, but paying money in exchange for commodities; and being paid at work not according to need but according to productivity. It was straightforward commodity-money exchange, such as existed not only under capitalism but even earlier. It necessarily resulted in inequality of wages between workers in different kinds and grades of jobs, and between slow and fast workers on the same job. The gap between the lowest and the highest wages even increased during the 1930s, as an enormous influx of new recruits from the countryside more than tripled the ranks of the industrial proletariat between 1929 and 1940. Yet, while a growing inequality of wages was incompatible with the advance toward communism, wage inequality – and the commodity-exchange relations in distribution of consumer goods on which it rested – were not in themselves in violation of the theory of socialism. Marx and Lenin were amply clear on this point. Socialism, as Lenin pointed out, does away with the injustice that consists in the means of production having been seized by private owners, but it “is not capable of destroying at once the further injustice consisting in the distribution of the articles of consumption ‘according to work performed’ (and not according to need).” The socialist order of society, as distinct from the higher, communist order, “does not remove the defects of distribution and the inequality of ‘bourgeois right’ which continue to rule as long as the products are divided ‘according to work performed.’” (State and Revolution, Ch. 5, Sec. 3.)

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Dictatorship of the proletariat when a couple of guys are elected from tens of millions to decide on how to the state is run do you not see any problem with this?

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The people that have power to influence and manage labour and human rights are a class of people. They do not have to own a factory because the liberal institutions and the state are which enforce their power the “proletariat” have no say in the things they manage

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11 points

Congrats you don’t know anything about Marxism

They do not have to own a factory because the liberal institutions and

Under Stalin private property was outlawed and owned by the collective people. So Labour wasn’t a commodity that could be bought and sold on the market meaning no surplus value could be extracted from workers for a capitalist class to exist on profit

“Democracy for the vast majority of the people, and suppression by force, i.e., exclusion from democracy, of the exploiters and oppressors of the people–this is the change democracy undergoes during the transition from capitalism to communism.”

-Lenin

Democracy in the Soviet Union was organised into Soviets that anyone could join who would then elect their delegates they would send to parliaments.

Socialism, as Lenin pointed out, does away with the injustice that consists in the means of production having been seized by private owners, but it “is not capable of destroying at once the further injustice consisting in the distribution of the articles of consumption ‘according to work performed’ (and not according to need).” The socialist order of society, as distinct from the higher, communist order, “does not remove the defects of distribution and the inequality of ‘bourgeois right’ which continue to rule as long as the products are divided ‘according to work performed.’” (State and Revolution, Ch. 5, Sec. 3.)

Marx, in analyzing and comparing different historic forms of production so as to identify the specific characteristics that defined capitalism, noted that money and commodities existed in many other forms of society, to varying degrees, without capitalism arising. “The historic conditions of its existence are by no means given with the mere circulation of money and commodities. It [capitalism] can spring into life only when the owner of the means of production and subsistence meets in the market with the free laborer selling his labor power.” (Capital, Vol. I, International ed., p. 170.)

“In themselves money and commodities are no more capital than are the means of production and of subsistence. They want transforming into capital. But this transformation can only take place under certain circumstances that center in this, viz., that two very different kinds of commodity-possessors must come face to face and into contact; on the one hand, the owners of money, means of production, means of subsistence, who are eager to increase the sums of values they possess, by buying other people’s labor power; on the other hand, free laborers, the sellers of their own labor power and therefore the sellers of labor… With this polarization of the market for commodities, the fundamental conditions of capitalist production are given. The capitalist system presupposes the complete separation of the laborers from all property in the means by which they can realize their labor. As soon as capitalist production is once on its own legs, it not only maintains this separation, but reproduces it on a continually extending scale.” (Capital, p. 714.)

Lenin likewise, in his study of the “Development of Capitalism in Russia,” showed that only “the separation of the direct producer from the means of production, i.e., his expropriation, [signified] the transition from simple commodity production to capitalist production (and [constituted] the necessary condition for this transition)… The home market… spreads with the extension of commodity production from products to labor power, and only in proportion as the latter is transformed into a commodity does capitalism embrace the entire production of the country, developing mainly on account of means of production…” (Collected Works, Vol. 3, pp. 68-69.)

Thus in order to demonstrate that a given society was capitalist, in the scientific sense of the term, it would be necessary to show not merely that articles of consumption were commodities (which was true but proves little), but also and principally that commodity exchange, based on expropriation of the direct producers, embraced and governed the means of production and labor power. If the direct producers, the workers, are not divorced from the means of production, and if consequently neither these means nor labor power function as commodities, then no survivals of “bourgeois right,” nor any amount of other inequities and injustices, can allow of such a society being properly termed capitalist.

So we’ve established the Soviet Union by Marx and Lenins definition was socialist - so what class are you referring to?

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What the fuck is this? if the workers had power why did the soviet union fall? and why were Stalins purges good? Stalin didnt repesent the workers nor did the workers have any say in how the state was run. They elected Stalin? I guess everythings cool then we elect peopel all the time

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