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Hi Hexbear Dunkers,
Thank you for calling me out on the misinformed, small-minded, and frankly awful comments I had made about the Ukrainian conflict. I am significantly out of my element talking politics, especially eastern european politics.
I appreciate everyone who responded to me, even if they were just pointing out how ridiculous or foolish I am.
I’m going to engage in some self reflection and figure out my motives for making uneducated comments on the internet.
Wow, I’m taken aback at a person actually coming onto the internet with an open mind. Good on you stranger, you’re kinda my hero.
It’s a pretty low bar so please save your admiration for someone who deserves it. Thanks for the encouraging words though.
Came here to dunk amd this is the first thing i saw. We love to see this. Thank you for your honesty and I hope your self-reflection goes well.
Most of us are reformed libs who might have said something similiar to you had we not done some reevaluating of our recieved ideologies ar some point.
If you should want info on left wing perspectives or ideologies, the fine comrades on hexbear are as eager to help as we can be ruthless toward reactionary assertions.
Thanks for the welcome. I’m actually interested in media sources I should check out, specifically around the russia-ukraine conflict. History, analysis, commentary, etc. Anything I find from Google or YouTube (also Google 🤔) is couched in the same exact narrative.
Early on one of our members was keeping an update thread going with sources, that was very helpful, but at certain point it was dropped as the conflict kept going on. Id post this question in the askchapo community and I’m sure you’ll be innundated with sources lol, we’ve got some well informed comrades on there
I’m actually interested in media sources I should check out, specifically around the russia-ukraine conflict. History, analysis, commentary, etc. Anything I find from Google or YouTube (also Google 🤔) is couched in the same exact narrative.
Hohohoho… this is where the real fun begins. I present to you: The New Atlas
Come and join us in our latest news megathread. There are always plenty of links being posted to relevant topics that often don’t get much attention elsewhere.
Yeah they should just submit to a genocidal invader! That’s WAY better than dying!
I have not cheered for anything. I regret this situation as much as anyone. I simply think that it’s plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and “re-educates” your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for a Ukranian identity. I also think it’s quite telling that these “peace appeals” are only made to Ukraine, even though it takes two to tango and Ukraine isn’t the one trespassing.
The intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. Russia is doing that to Ukraine.
I don’t think the people getting genocided care about dictionaries or philosophy.
“it’s senseless to resist Putin, give your country to him and nobody will get hurt”
Serious mode: what is your ideal outcome of this conflict? I’m genuinely interested and willing (and hopefully able) to learn.
The ideal situation is the USSR is reinstated and Zelensky and Putin get sent to the gulag together.
Sure that would be ideal, but let’s talk about realistic and practical outcomes.
Is this a Chamberlain impression? You think Russia is going to stop? Putin is an imperialist megalomaniac who wants fealty and submission.
If Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Putin will take it as explicit approval of his imperialist expansion on behalf of the entire West. There might be months to a year of tenuous peace then he’ll march onward until his puppet is sitting in Kyiv and Ukranians are speaking Russian.
Like snap my fingers ideal? What @ZoomeristLeninist@hexbear.net said.
What’s actually possible as part of negotiations? This would be (an) ideal outcome to me (but is still never going to happen):
my general ideal framework for a potential peace agreement is obnoxiously long so I put it in this spoiler
1) Ukraine agrees to commit to purging their military and government of white supremacists (and Russia agrees to do the same! Although I think you’ll find that they wont have nearly the same kind of problem). This includes any official or officer who has said things like Russians being “Asian” or some other nazi dogwhistle bs like that. Oh and also anyone who has glorified Bandera in anyway, they’ve got to go too (he is seriously irredeemable, please look up the history of the OUN and all the truly horrible white supremacist shit they did)
2) Ukraine agrees to never attempt to join Nato again because of Russia’s valid security concerns. This is probably by far the most important measure, and it should be put into the agreement that any attempts to skirt around this will be met with military force.
3) After maybe a year to give everything time to settle down, all territory that Russia either fully or partially occupies is given a referendum on whether they want to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine, reintegrated but given autonomy, integrated into Russia but given autonomy, or fully integrated into Russia. As part of this Ukraine must also demilitarize to a certain extent so they don’t just start shelling any autonomous territories like they did before. Ukraine must also give up any claim to these territories that vote to integrate as part of Russia, including Crimea.
4) Russia agrees to help de-mine/de-bomb both Ukrainian territory and newly integrated Russian territory (NATO should also be a part of this particular part, but good luck getting them to actually help once the war is over)
5) Russia commits to a plan to help reunite families torn apart by the war, and both governments set up a plan to support war orphans so they don’t fall into human trafficking rings.
6) Russia helps Ukraine re-establish its peacetime agricultural production in return for certain economic trade agreements remaining favorable to Russia for a certain period of time.
7) Finally a joint commission to investigate war crimes committed by either of the 2 sides, and agreeing to abide by their findings.
(Final notes: As a part of #3 it will only be a ceasefire until certain things are completed, and would be broken by obvious signs of aggression etc. etc.)
I doubt any of this will actually happen because Ukraine’s government has been instructed by its western masters supplying it with all of its weaponry to not negotiate or else they will cut their weapon supply off, which will immediately weaken their position at any negotiating table with Russia.
an even longer obnoxiously long explanation of my position
These probably seems overly favorable to Russia, and they are favorable towards them, because they’re well positioned to win any war of attrition, so they’re in no hurry to give favorable terms to Ukraine, but I also laid out some propositions that would benefit Ukraine. Honestly, a few of my propositions may even be too favorable to Ukraine for what the Russian government would be willing to accept. Also, they help Ukrainian proles, not bourgeois really, so the Ukrainian government may not even like those propositions that are supposed to be favorable towards Ukraine! Still, this is roughly what I would hope to see coming out of a peace agreement between the two.
If you really can’t accept that these are the best terms Ukraine could get, I’ll just say they should have accepted the peace deal (and its much more favorable terms) a year ago before good ole Boris Johnson meddled and convinced them they could either win or get better terms later somehow. Every month that they wait their position gets weaker, and the terms will be more and more favorable to Russia. I would prefer that tens of thousands of more Ukrainians and Russians not die just for Russia to have better terms for Ukraine’s inevitable surrender, so ideally they should negotiate now, not then. The only way the tide of this war turns is if NATO actually gets directly involved, and I would really hope that we don’t risk nuclear annihilation over a war between two bourgeois-led states.
We could argue about the inevitability of Ukraine’s defeat, I guess, but I seriously doubt either of us are well educated on military affairs so that would be a pointless argument, I’m pretty much just having to go based off of what people I trust say in this field and do what little research I can to make sure they’re not just completely making something up.
My final statement is that I’ve seen convincing arguments that even if Zelensky tried to negotiate at this point, the fascists he’s surrounded himself with would just kill him and take power to keep the war going, so this is all could just be useless speculating anyways.
The new border between Russia and Ukraine will be defined by the crater caused by the impact of a giant meteor which gives both parties something more pressing to deal with.
Not speaking for everyone here but an ideal outcome would be:
- Peace treaty
- Russia gets to keep crimea because there is 0 chance that Russians will give up Crimea. Also Ukraine can no longer try to start a drought there. The donbass gets an option to stay in Ukraine with actual guarantee that Ukraine will not try to bomb them again, independence or joining Russia depending on vote.
- The other two oblasts go back to Ukraine as long as Ukraine doesn’t prosecute anyone for “collaboration” like they did with garbage collectors and other civil servants in Kherson.
- Removal of Nazis from government positions in Ukraine. Destruction of Nazi paramilitaries. Removing ban from Socialism and banning nazism instead.
- Putin dies or something and hopefully Russia doesn’t collapse.
Further outcomes would be that Ukraine doesn’t pay back the loans to the west because they simply can’t afford to. I have no idea how they’ll manage post war even if they win or lose. Worker rights in Ukraine have been demolished and the country has been sold to Blackrock and Co… And with Ukraine sending their working age population to the meat grinder, the future becomes bleaker every day.
Thanks for your response. I don’t entirely agree with all of your points but I can respect the thought you’ve put into the situation.
Why yes, poor people in another country should die so I can sound like a smart wargame strategist on my forums.
e: this was the wrong thread for this, but it still kinda works
duty and obligation to try
If you were a grunt in Lord of the Rings and your opponent was the orcish horde and Gandalf was saying this to you after having demonstrated his righteous power, there might be an argument because you live in a world where anybody with a baby brain can tell the good guys from the bad guys. You were born from a mother and your opponent was carved out of mud ugly and feral. It’d suck, but it’s like fuck it, we ball.
If you’re a member of a capitalist society being antagonized by a member of another capitalist society so that treat manufacturers can uphold NFT copyrights 13% more effectively, then there’s 110% less duty.
If you were a grunt in Lord of the Rings and your opponent was the orcish horde and Gandalf was saying this to you after having demonstrated his righteous power, there might be an argument because you live in a world where anybody with a baby brain can tell the good guys from the bad guys. You were born from a mother and your opponent was carved out of mud ugly and feral. It’d suck, but it’s like fuck it, we ball.
Despite everything, this is somehow also the exact argument the op would use to justify more Ukrainians dying on mass.
